Two part calcium additive

[Patrick]

How much mag flake does one add to the 2.5 cups of RO/DI water as listed on Seamonkey's site selling the two gallon kit?

I have access to REAGENT grade of magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, and bi-carbonate, and that is the only measurement I cannot find.

[David Grigor]

The 2.5 cups is only for a small portion.

Best and easiet to make a gallon at a time. His mini recipe is only because he gives you just enough Mg to balance with 1 gallon of each CA/ALK.

What % of water is in the mg. flake ( or your Regent ) will determine how much you need. Typically the pellet stuff has less water in it so you use 20% less.

But assuming it is 77-80% Magnesium Chloride, you mix 7 cups of Mg. chloride and 1 cup of Magnesium Sulfate ( epson salt ) if you want a Mg supplement and you don't use the Randy's 2 part.

If you use Randy's 2 part then the recipe is slightly different to help balance out the chlorides from the CA part. So it's 5 cups Mg chloride and 3 cups Epson.

Fill the remaining gallon milk jug with water to create the solutions.

It will seperate when let sit for a while so be sure to shake before using.

[Redwinger]

Man I swear David is a walking encyclopedia at times:biggthumpup:

[David Grigor]

I've made a few batches of it by now and like to read Randy's forum daily.

[Patrick]

David,

My Calcium Chloride will be 98% pure.

The magnesium Chloride will be 98% pure. I will be using that instead of the epsom salt.

I will be using carbonate instead of bicarbonate

[Patrick]

I am concerned about the epsom salts. Is there any proof that sulfates are metabolized or are apart of the calcium equation? We do not test for the sulfates, thus why should we be adding them without any real scientific proof.

[TekCat]

Sulfates are added to keep ionic balance. It is all in Randy's DIY recepie article.

[Patrick]

How do you know the water would be out of ionic balance? You cannot know this unless sulfate is metabolized. If there is no hard proof that it is metabolized, then adding sulfates would throw it out of balance. Time for a bit more thought about what the animals really use. Remember the old adage, never add it unless you can test for it!

[David Grigor]

If you look at the bottom portion of the Randy's 2 part acticle there is a chart that shows major ions and there proportions after a years time and you can see the chlorides ppm and sulfate ppm. True we can't test for those but it should be predictable based on the anaylsis.

I doubt that is going to make or break your success but sounds logical to try to keep the ratio closer.

[epidemic]

where are you getting reagent grade material?

[Irenicus]

David, how much of Randy's 2 part do you make at a time?

[David Grigor]

Right now still just 1 gallon at a time but I do bake the whole box of baking soda at once. Since I dose Kalk as well and PH range is starting to level off at 8.33 low and 8.45 high, I may start mixing some baked and some not baked so that I can go longer between baking and hopefully can still keep PH above 8.2 for the low which is my goal.

I will soon be making in a 5g bucket as it's getting a little more time consuming than I'd like to make it. Dosing is all automated so that is a non-issue just making the 2 part. Now that I'm starting to get up there in 200ml each part daily dosages a gallon only lasts about 20days now ( 1/2 diluted meaning using 1 1/8 cups of Baking soda not the full 2 1/4 cups ).

The Ca part is super easy to make and doesn't really require anything to get it to dissolve so I probably won't make 5gal of that a time just the ALK.

[Patrick]

where are you getting reagent grade material?

Secret! But you may see this pop up on RAG soon enough! Made out of reagent grade stuff.

David,

Calcium Chloride, the dow flake has ammonia in it. This is why I am going with reagent grade. Additionally the MAG flake has phosphates in it.

I would hate to fuel the algae machine. I think this was not pointed out enought in the articles. I would hate to have someone new to the hobby try this with commercially available products only to wonder why the heck their algae went nuts.

[TekCat]

Anyone has numbers of Ammonia and Phospates in a gallon of recepie?

[David Grigor]

Paul, the ammonia level in the CA chlorides tests out lower than Kents Turbo. It's a non issue. What amount gets added is consumed by bacteria in about 30 minutes or less in a muture fully cycled system. It is not anywhere near the levels required to stress fish and is very temporary.

If phosphates where a real issue I'm sure it would have gotten high visability long before now since many have been using this for 3+ years and I've been using for a year now. You should be more concerned with the food you add than the amount of phosphated in Mg. Also realize that you don't add Mg everyday so it's even less of an impact IMO.

[sea monkey]

I am concerned about the epsom salts. Is there any proof that sulfates are metabolized or are apart of the calcium equation? We do not test for the sulfates, thus why should we be adding them without any real scientific proof.

you add the sulfates so they are balance with the chloride that is added from the calcium chloride . This is done to keep the residual ions as close to natural sea water as possible.

[sea monkey]

Secret! But you may see this pop up on RAG soon enough! Made out of reagent grade stuff.

David,

Calcium Chloride, the dow flake has ammonia in it. This is why I am going with reagent grade. Additionally the MAG flake has phosphates in it.

I would hate to fuel the algae machine. I think this was not pointed out enough in the articles. I would hate to have someone new to the hobby try this with commercially available products only to wonder why the heck their algae went nuts.

I would be really interested in seeing where you found this data

I agree with David on this one. The ammonia levels is extremely low and once diluted in your tank it is insignificant. One small fish probably adds significantly more ammonia than the Dow flake could ever hope to. If David is right and Kent tested higher this is certainly a non issue.

I have spoken with the people over at MAG flake , they also produce an aquarium grade version and the only difference is lower ammonia. This version is used by many of the big aquarium salt producers. Again you use so little of this it would have to be just riddled with P04 to matter. This is the first i have heard of anyone saying there is a P04 problem with it , with all the people using this you would think that it would have come up constantly if it was an issue.

while reagent grade might sound good, make sure to see a data sheet because often the things that are important to aquarists are totally unimportant to scientists and vice versa so reagent grade doesn't necessarily make it better , just more expensive. To be honest , It could even be worse. You need the saspifc levels if each item to really know. At least as detailed as the ones found here http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

I believe harcos chemicals, univar and university supplies can supply any grade of pretty much any of these items if you get an account and are willing to purchase them in pallets.

[TJDeMars]

Can anyone tell me where they are finding Dow Flake and Mag Flake here in the Twin Cities? I did find Mag Flake at Home Depot outside on a pallet. I had no luck with the Dow Flake though. I'm getting close to needing a new batch of parts 1 & 2. I think I made enough part 3 to last me for 6 years.

[David Grigor]

Most walmarts and some Home depots carry Prestone Driveway Heat pellets. You can also get the Dow Pedalow pellets at Gertens Nursery. No know source for the Dow CA Flake unless you have a wholesale liscense to get it in WI. Last option is to get some bulk from twopartsolution.com which is local here in St. Louis Park, if your set on usig the Dow Flake vs. the dow pellets.

[epidemic]

Secret! But you may see this pop up on RAG soon enough! Made out of reagent grade stuff.


I was just wondering since I work as a chemist and I know what reagent grade cost.

[sea monkey]

Can anyone tell me where they are finding Dow Flake and Mag Flake here in the Twin Cities? I did find Mag Flake at Home Depot outside on a pallet. I had no luck with the Dow Flake though. I'm getting close to needing a new batch of parts 1 & 2. I think I made enough part 3 to last me for 6 years.

for single bags you could try calling some pool supply companies. some of them use dow but most use some other brand.

which home depot sells the dead sea works mag flake ? that's a nice find for the club : )

[TJDeMars]

I apologize for the confusion, it was not Dead Sea Works Mag Flake. It was one of the alternative magnesium chloride substitutes that Randy listed in his article. I found it at the Forest Lake Home Depot, they had 6 pallets of it back in November.

I did use it and have put about a gallon total in my tank to date and have had no problems.:smile:

[sea monkey]

The only one that randy has listed as safe to use is Mag flake from dead sea works . however the iceman in st paul sells it : )

for the cost of this stuff i wouldn't to chance it and see what the accumulative effects will be.

[TJDeMars]

I just went back to Randy's article to double check. You are right, there was not a substitute listed. I did by the Dead Sea Works stuff, I found my bag. While on the article a few minutes ago I noticed a notice about the Dead Sea Works Mag Flake. I'm cutting and pasting it below.

Editors note (3/10/07): Note, the manufacturer of MAG flake has alerted us that they very strongly recommend against using this product in reef aquaria. While many reef aquarists have successfully used the product, the manufacturer does not claim to be able to provide this product at suitable quality in the future.

I think I would still continue to use it in the future. With caution.

[sea monkey]

i called dead sea works distributor and they said the same thing. however he said a bunch of things that made it real clear that he had no idea what he was talking about. Like how it was going to kill all my cichlids in my reef tank. Randy is a highly accredited chemist and is aware of how this product is being put to use and what the real dangers are , if I had had a choice of who to listen to , Randy or some random salesmen, I know who I'd pick every time . They are also talking about using it in a salt mix where you would add a ton of it. we are adding such small amounts it doesn't matter .

Keep in mind that they sell a aquarium grade version to the big salt companies and have to protect that interest . Many people at this company have told me the only difference is the ammonia content, The aquarium grade is a low ammonia grade version. This grade is currently only available in bulk (full truckloads) direct from dead sea works in Israel.

We can debate all day about what ammonia level is safe and wither we have the ability to even properly test for it with hobby test kits but end the end i think the real world results speak for themselves . thousands of people who have used it for prolonged periods of time can tell you they have had nothing but positive results.

[Patrick]

Sea Monkey(even the whole club for that matter),

I have been in contact with my salt supplier . . . he can supply you with the aquarium grade at less than a truck load at a time, even 5#,10#,10# bags if you want.

I am working with him to do a 1 gallon consumer kit, which would make 1 gallon of calcium, one gallon of Alk, and 1 bottle of magnesium.

However his Calcium Chloride is 98% pure so the math would have to be adjusted a bit.

Let me know if there is more interest as we are in the preliminary stages of doing ROI calculations. If twopartsolution.com wants in on this, I am sure it would tip the scales to be more in favor of providing this type of product to the general product.

[TJDeMars]

:agree: I agree that the long term success of many users speaks for itself. I just thought I would pass along the news. It was fairly recently that RC put the disclaimer on the old article. I will continue to use it! Since I started using the 2 part solution my aquarium has finally stabalized.:smile: