thinking of T5 DIY upgrade...

[wes]

what's the least expensive way to get some decent t5 lighting?

I'm thinking of switching my 50 xtall from less of a FOWLR to more of a softy/lightly mixed. it's 30" deep, but I need not have anything on the bottom; I have shelves at various depths. Anyway, with t5s, how much wattage would I need to keep softies and maybe some LPS? It's doubtfull but possible I'd throw any SPS in there... Right now it has 130 watts CF. It is only 30" wide and 12" back, so that's a factor as well. I'd like it most if I could retro fit some t5s into the CF fixture I have.

If I went with something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/4-ACE-120-277V-1-Lamp-55W-T5-CF-Ballast_W0QQitemZ140121198358QQihZ004QQcategoryZ66 915QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and used my fixture, what else would I need? I'm assuming endcaps, bulbs, of course, but would that work to wire up in this fixture?

http://www.seaquestmarine.com/product_CSL_ML.htm

I have the 30" model, obviously.

[David Grigor]

Best to build your own fixture. What makes T5 so special is good quality reflectors which are 3" in width most you could get in there would be 2. Without the individual parabolic reflectors the output won't be much ( if any better ) than what you have.

While it may be possible, You pretty much have to totally gut the thing new endcaps, ballasts ( unless you can determine what ballast is in there it may be possible to reuse ), bulbs, and reflectors. Best to sell it for what you can and get either another fixture or DIY retro a custom canopy.

For a 12" tank, 3 T5s is all that will fit on there with good icecap reflectors. It would be better than your current PC fixture for sure but the 30" deep is certainly not ideal for just 3 bulbs.

[wes]

I have no plans for making this into a full-blown reef. Probably just some zoos, mushrooms, and leathers. With target feeding, I imagine I could get away with less light, I was just wondering if it'd be worth it to upgrade. Maybe I should just try these guys out on 130 CF.

[David Grigor]

With corals high enough sure anything is possible. I have 2X24W T5s with quality reflectors on a 29g which same demensions but just 20" tall and makes a good community tank. You may be pretty limited with what you could put in the bottom 10" of the tank though. You really want to put the max number of bulbs you can over it though being 30"H which with icecap reflectors would be 3.

If you go T5s though best to start from scratch and sell the current fixture for what you can.

Aquaactinics now makes a 24" model. Has pretty good reflectors oriented to where 5 bulbs will fit and would be about the best you can do for such a narrow tank. May be more money than your willing to spend at $316 without bulbs. Expect about $100 more for the bulbs.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=AT-TX52400&Category_Code=Aquactinics

[wes]

Is there a difference between the par/watt of ho T5 and NO T5? Just curious

[wes]

and what about if I made a hanging set-up for this fixture?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=120129381189

[wes]

for not much more, looks like I could have a halide in there, too!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150128717465&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

[David Grigor]

Sorry, I can't view ebay items from work as they are blocked. I'll take a look when I get home. But it is VERY important to reiterate, what makes T5s so good is the individual parabolic reflectors and a good active cooling/venting of the bulb. Without both, or with poor performing reflectors, T5s won't be any better than what you have. It is so critical to choosing/building a good T5 setup.

Anything that mentions NO T5s is not a good application for our uses. Don't waste your money.

[wes]

Sorry, I can't view ebay items from work as they are blocked. I'll take a look when I get home. But it is VERY important to reiterate, what makes T5s so good is the individual parabolic reflectors and a good active cooling/venting of the bulb. Without both, or with poor performing reflectors, T5s won't be any better than what you have. It is so critical to choosing/building a good T5 setup.

Anything that mentions NO T5s is not a good application for our uses. Don't waste your money.

hey thanks for all your input, I do appreciate it. Is it possible to make DIY reflectors of any quality? I read in another thread something about using polished aluminum from skylight tubes to make a reflector. I can certainly fashion a big ol' fan to keep 'um cool, ugly kinda fits in with the theme of this tank.

[David Grigor]

IMO/IME, no not worth the time and trouble and will likely still be sub-par compared to what is available commercially. Good thing is that it is just a one time cost with no added electricity or replacement cost.

Sure you can get the best reflective material out there but if it isn't bent and designed properly to send the light down to the tank without restriking the bulb then you saved what maybe $5-10 per reflector sacrificing performance.

Best to leave it to the experts and get the icecap reflectors.

[wes]

Ah, well, I guess it's probably best for me to save for a while longer as well... Would MH be a better way to go for deep penetration?

[David Grigor]

Possible at 30" depth if you really concerned about penetration then your talking 250-400WMH to do the job. Heat may be a concern, electricity a concern etc. A tank only 12" wide, you may also have light spillage from MH out the front and back which would be wasted. With T5s, you will be able to direct all the light to the tank.

For a community tank with a little bit of everything but mostly softies/lps you mention, T5s should fit the bill only the bottom 10" would be the concern and in that case, you may be better off just replacing the tank with a 29g for about $50 as opposed to the extra expense of trying to light a deep tank that just isn't very suited for a reef anyhow.

[wes]

Possible at 30" depth if you really concerned about penetration then your talking 250-400WMH to do the job. Heat may be a concern, electricity a concern etc. A tank only 12" wide, you may also have light spillage from MH out the front and back which would be wasted. With T5s, you will be able to direct all the light to the tank.

For a community tank with a little bit of everything but mostly softies/lps you mention, T5s should fit the bill only the bottom 10" would be the concern and in that case, you may be better off just replacing the tank with a 29g for about $50 as opposed to the extra expense of trying to light a deep tank that just isn't very suited for a reef anyhow.


I know it's not best suited for reef, but I like the look of it, and I enjoy the uniqueness of it. More importantly, so does my fiance. :-) I would be alright with a 250 MH and may think about that as I evaluate costs for the future. I imagine a 175 watt MH would be similar to T5s, right? Hell, right now almost all of it is unsuitable for growth, so if I get the top 20", then that's quite an improvement. Besides, who the hell wants to reach into the bottom 10" for placement or maintenance anyway?

[David Grigor]

I'd choose T5s over 175w myself. Only exception would be the Iwasaki 15k which with the right ballast can compete with a number of 250Wers. But again heat will be more. Depending on how sophisticated your setup is ( temp contollers and automation and/or redundancy ) it may be one more thing to worry about causing a tank crash.

T5s growth will not be a concern with good water parameters ( elevated and stable ALK/CA/MG/PH levels and low phosphates ) and corals placed appropriately but with such a small tank, growth is not necessarily a good thing.

[wes]

yeah, seems like T5s would be the way to go, I really like the look and would hate to worry about heat, especially in a damn 3rd floor apartment. what do I care about the bottom of the ocean, anyway? nuts to those last 10" I'm gonna keep on lookin' for a box of money, now if you don't mind...

...but with such a small tank, growth is not necessarily a good thing.

growth for me is a good thing, I can't afford to get anything but tiny free frags, so I need some growth. :-)

[David Grigor]

I'm gonna keep on lookin' for a box of money, now if you don't mind...


But then you have the moral delima of returning to the rightful owner.

I guess a reward would be possible.

[wes]

But then you have the moral delima of returning to the rightful owner.

I guess a reward would be possible.

anyone who's actually ABLE to lose a box of money would have enough to give a decent sized reward. Or maybe I could assume they don't need the money back if they have enough to be careless with an entire box full.

[storrisch]

anyone who's actually ABLE to lose a box of money would have enough to give a decent sized reward. Or maybe I could assume they don't need the money back if they have enough to be careless with an entire box full.

Lindsay Lohan lost her purse w/ over a million dollars in jewelry. It was found in the airport parking garage by a cab driver and returned to her. She never gave him a reward.

[wes]

Lindsay Lohan lost her purse w/ over a million dollars in jewelry. It was found in the airport parking garage by a cab driver and returned to her. She never gave him a reward.

wow, really seems like he shouldda kept it.

[David Grigor]

Well. Honestly reward or no reward, I could never keep it in good concience without at least trying to find the rightful owner. You know the sayings....What comes around goes around......Do unto others.....etc. etc.....

BTW: I took a look at those fixture. Nova stinks. The amount of light from a 4 bulb of those would be about as effective as a 2 bulb with good reflectors and would spend twice the amount of electricity doing it. This is because the bulbs are placed so close together and the reflector is flat instead of parablolic so the amount of light bouncing around restriking the bulbs is significant.

Regarding the outer orbit fixture. I personally never considered them to be high quality and would pass for that reason alone.

[wes]

yes yes, anytime I think of doing something morally reprehinsible, I wind up worrying about the juju too much. Yesterday I couldn't even let it slip when the guy at the register charged me for a toll free fax when I used long distance.

[Turf]

As long as all of you are posting on T5 HO's then I've got a question...

Can I retro a coral life 24" hood made for 2 65watt PC's and has 2 x 65watt MAGNETIC ballasts? Or would I have to use new electronic ballasts?

[David Grigor]

No way to answer that until you open it up and see what ballasts are in there and look up the ansi codes that the ballast will drive. During the lifecycle of those pc fixtures they have OEM'd a number of different ballasts in them.

Some coralife use Fulham workhorse ballast that can be used for T5s. However, that's probably about all you would be able to salvage. Good reflectors for T5s take up 3" height and 3" width. Most coralife PC fixture are slimline and not tall enough to accomindate plus wouldn't be able to fit many T5s front to back either. Fixture being 24" it might not even have room lengthwise. At this point, I'm not ready to recommend 24" T5s based on my experiences thus far.


Best to just sell what you have for whatever you can get and put the money towards a new fixture or retro setup.
Retro would always be my first choice since you can pick choose the best components. With fixtures usually there is at least 1 thing they could have done better. As for a fixture, Aquaactinics would probably be my first choice.

Lastly, 24" T5s get the hottest ( which means won't last as long as 48" bulbs ), the least effecient per watt of the T5s. So far on my 29g tank, I've already had 2 bulbs fail prematurely. You may be better off looking into a single 150W DE setup instead.

[Turf]

thanks for the input and thanks for all the thought you put into it.

[wes]

No way to answer that until you open it up and see what ballasts are in there and look up the ansi codes that the ballast will drive. During the lifecycle of those pc fixtures they have OEM'd a number of different ballasts in them.

Some coralife use Fulham workhorse ballast that can be used for T5s. However, that's probably about all you would be able to salvage. Good reflectors for T5s take up 3" height and 3" width. Most coralife PC fixture are slimline and not tall enough to accomindate plus wouldn't be able to fit many T5s front to back either. Fixture being 24" it might not even have room lengthwise. At this point, I'm not ready to recommend 24" T5s based on my experiences thus far.


Best to just sell what you have for whatever you can get and put the money towards a new fixture or retro setup.
Retro would always be my first choice since you can pick choose the best components. With fixtures usually there is at least 1 thing they could have done better. As for a fixture, Aquaactinics would probably be my first choice.

Lastly, 24" T5s get the hottest (which means won't last as long as 48" bulbs), the least effecient per watt of the T5s. So far on my 29g tank, I've already had 2 bulbs fail prematurely. You may be better off looking into a single 150W DE setup instead.

this is good information to know. For the record, how has growth been in your 29? I'm not afraid of keeping with my PCs, they're cheap enough, especially if the T5 bulbs aren't lasting all that long in 24" fixtures... It's still pretty much a fowlr with a condy. :-) Eventually, I think there'd be quite an electrical advantage with T5--150 MH or 130 watt PC vs 48 T5 is a big change. Ah well, no rush. Only bad things happen fast in this hobby.

[David Grigor]

Eventually, I think there'd be quite an electrical advantage with T5--150 MH or 130 watt PC vs 48 T5 is a big change.

Electrical costs is pretty negligable. Have you ever figured out the cost of 100W difference @ 8 hours a day? It's not even $1.50 a month. Most people wouldn't be that concerned about the difference in electrical cost.

It's just 2X24 T5s on a 29g tank. Not really concerned with growth so not paying that much attention and there are not acros or sps. Just sofites with a few lps and all doing fine.

[wes]

How much pc wattage would 2x24 T5 be comparable to? assume good reflectors...

[David Grigor]

No PC wattage will match the intensity of T5s with icecap reflectors. You possibily could make a comparison over a widespread area but to me, intensitity in relation to coral placement vs. overall light spread over a given area is more important.

[Taklu]

I was reading up old threads in T5's to make my choice of giving up my exisiting 48" 4x 65W PC's in favor of T5's. There appears to be no significant saving in electricity cost.. part of the other costs is getting the harness & reflectors & bulbs...already got a ballast. Before I make the plunge want to know whats the best place to buy this stuff & maybe from there I can figure out how much $$$$ spent im looking at.

Also replace 4x65W PC's with 3 T5's; is that a good conversion?

[mattb]

It depends on what you want to keep...

The reflectors are cheap as is the harness, the bulbs are pretty cheap too....

[David Grigor]

What size tank are we talking ? I have 3 t5 on my 75g frag tank and would have no problem with doing that on a 75g show tank especially on a community reef. Acros in the top 8" and the rest community.

On a wider or taller tank then may it may take more bulbs.

For a retro,

3 Icecap refelctors at retail are about $22 each = $66
3 sets of endcaps with standoffs are $15 each = $45
3 bulbs are about $22 each retail = $66

So looking at roughly $200 after shipping. Assuming your ballast(s) will drive 3 bulbs.

If you don't have already you need some DC fans to keep the bulbs cool the will need to pick up some of those as well. This is very important to light output to keep the bulbs running cool.

Reefgeek or diyreef.com are your better T5 mailorder. Bulbs can be gotten locally from ryan and twopart and Dirk for sure may be others.

[Taklu]

mostly zoos, shrooms, frogspawn, torch coral...very interested in some caps (orange maybe) havent tried any others ...yet...probably wont either as I may not have a lot more time than I have now.

[David Grigor]

3 bulbs ( icecap reflectors and fan cooled ) would be a good start IMO. 2 10K/day bulbs and 1 actinic for a 75g community tank. Can always add more later if needed.

[benihana]

So 3 T5's would be enough on a std. 75 gallon? I am in the same boat, current 260 wt PC and want to upgrade.

[Taklu]

3 bulbs ( icecap reflectors and fan cooled ) would be a good start IMO. 2 10K/day bulbs and 1 actinic for a 75g community tank. Can always add more later if needed.

Thanks David. Its for a 75G.... Not sure if T5 lighting was in use or not..but my wife (which made my spirits soar) like the orange (or was it yellow) cap we saw at the meeting ur place! & since then I have been contemplating T5's or better lighting than the PC's I have today.

[David Grigor]

Yep. All T5s. I have both a large yellow scrolling turbinaria ( 8 years ), and a bright orange cap ( that one was grown from a frag 3 years old but the frag came from colony I had since 1999 ) so you remembered correctly.

[mattb]

Are you going to do 100% T5 on the 180 you're setting up?

[David Grigor]

Yes. Planning 8 48" bulbs total ( I don't want to have to reinvest in different ballasts and bulb lengths ). The front 6 staggered and back two ( in between the old style corner overflows ) will be centered. Rockwork will be designed so that the peaks where the acros will go have as much direct light as possible. All acros will be in the top 10". Some lower light sps, poccilipora, caps etc. will be lower and all the rest will be community lps/softy stuff.

[mattb]

Very cool... Can't wait to see that...