what to do with top off water...

[wes]

alright, just finished setting up my new jbj ato (thanks Derrek), and I'm wondering whether to buffer it, kalk it, or use the last of the supplements that came with my tank in it (essential elements, coralvite). I could still dose kalk at night, helping prevent the chance of a dose of kalk coming during the middle of the day when pH is highy (and when most evaporation occurs, I'm sure), but it'd be nice to not have to think about kalk at all... maybe a lower saturation? on the other hand, I could buffer the water (cut the seachem buffer with baking soda so the pH shift is minimal), as keeping my alk up has been harder than keeping the Ca up. OR, I've got the supplements, which could be dosed over time and keep up with my regular routine. Input? (and don't suggest I buy a reactor or anything, really, I'm getting married in like 2 weeks:banana:)

[mattb]

Congrats on getting married. I wouldn't waste your money on buffers.... I'd do kalk... though I don't know about the jbj unit (if it's prone to clogging from kalk).....

[wes]

yeah, I don't know if the floats would clog with kalk...

after thinking about it for a couple minutes I realized I could just put it on a timer to prevent day time kalk dosings.

buffers aren't that expensive--baking soda is cheap!

[mattb]

Yeah, but if you are adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), you're adding more sodium and are causing imbalances with the major ions.... which may or may not cause you problems (depends if you do water changes regularly).....

Dosing kalk during the day for top-off doesn't mean your pH will necessarily go super high (8.7+)

[wes]

I change 5-10% every few days, so most mistakes I make are moderated by that. :-) Isn't a major part of the 2 part solution sodium bicarbonate?

[mattb]

yup. but you are balancing via the chloride in the calcium chloride part (second part)...

[Turf]

side input... I ran both my 12gal and 90gal this way for... about 2years before moving here (always an exception to the rule) I don't do water changes or at least try not to do them for 6mo and then I do it because I feel guilty. I stopped dosing all the crud and just used baking soda to buffer it when needed and never had an issue... note however the did NOT put any LPS or SPS in the tank just softies. You guys maybe have those.

I figure the less I put in the less I have to take out (water change) and the corals still grow pretty good compared to when I use to do all the dosing and water changes.

[wes]

yup. but you are balancing via the chloride in the calcium chloride part (second part)...

so, using kalk and sodium bicarb would imbalance because the portion of Na would be much higher than the portion of Cl, right?

[David Grigor]

If you choose to add Kalk to your topoff water, you need to be sure you have plenty of thought into how to prevent too much at once to prevent ph from getting to high. PH controller and dosing pump in combination with float switch is recommended. With the right redundancy plan in place it is a good way to go but once your tank demand for ALK/CA getting higher you will likely have to implement a 2 part or CA reactor in addition to the Kalk.

[wes]

well, the jbj has 2 float switches and a variable amount of length it will stay on. I simply can't afford the redundency I'd like, but I'm trying to cover what bases I can.

[David Grigor]

Kalkwasser you have to be real careful not to dose too much too quickly or for too long. A slip up and can loose everything. Chance to loose hundreds to thousand in livestock ( it's happened plenty of times over the years in our club ) vs. skimping on hardware to do it right then I'd skip automated Kalkwasser and do manual 2 part daily. Too much at risk.

[wes]

Kalkwasser you have to be real careful not to dose too much too quickly or for too long. A slip up and can loose everything. Chance to loose hundreds to thousand in livestock ( it's happened plenty of times over the years in our club ) vs. skimping on hardware to do it right then I'd skip automated Kalkwasser and do manual 2 part daily. Too much at risk.

I think I'll probably do a very low dose of kalk in the top off and eventually go to two part. Right now my demand isn't high enough for me to be able to justify(to the lady) buying more stuff. :-) Maybe once student loans come in...

[hypertech]

OK, I'm thinking about doing this.

How would you mix and store the Kalk for the topoff? Do you just mix it at a light concentration? Does it need to be circulated or stirred to keep it in suspension? I also thought the precipitate should be left and tossed. Would you just let it accumulate until it got thick enough to clean out of the top off container?

If I did it this way, I could use a very small pump or with a gate valve and bypass in the top off tank to control how fast it gets added to the main tank. I might also be able to find an additional physical float valve as a backup to the sensor on the JBJ system.

[David Grigor]

Mix it once. Don't stir again until time to refill. Should last 14 days easy if left undisturbed. The crust on the top protects the Kalk from CO2 in the atmosphere.

You can leave the precipitate in and clean it out every few months. Just be sure the intake hose doesn't suck in the precipitate and undissolved kalk.

Can't stress enough the redundancy is a must. You need to protect yourself from both too fast and too much. I personally don't rely on water level only type systems such as a float valve or float switch. In addition I be sure to use timed as well to insure the max amount added in one day. If something other than evaporation where to cause the water levels to go down, you want to protect yourself from overloading.

A guy in the club combined water topoff directly from ro/di with a siphon overflow. While out on vacation the siphon broke leave the float valve constantly open as ro/di was added it would pump up to the show tank and came back to water soaked house and freshwater bath tank.

There have been numerous incidents in the club where kalk reactor tied to a float switch and float switch failed on.

Really, dosing pump is the way to go to insure only x amount is dripped at a time. Trying to use small pumps with needle valves etc. end up clogging and require more maintenance.

[hypertech]

My tank is an all in one. The only way water would get out besides evaporation is if it tipped over.

So really, I just need to be concerned about quantity going in. I could limit that with a timer. I'm not sure if the JBJ system will be happy on a timer like that or if I should just go to autotopoff.com

I'll look into the dosing pumps. All I'm looking for is a slow rate pump. I don't need it metered or anything. Hopefully I can find something reasonably priced that would work.

[David Grigor]

On a tank that little honsetly, If dosing pump is not in the buget, the best method would be just ro/di topoff and use a 2 part for your CA/ALk. Less worry about PH spike and things to go wrong with Kalk overdose etc.

[hypertech]

I just don't want to spend $2-300 on a top off pump.

So, you're thinking I should just skip the Kalk and go right to the 2 part. So far, I'm only losing a couple ounces of water a day so I probably wouldn't be adding much kalk anyway.

[wes]

well, if you've got that small of a system, chances are you could keep up with the demand by just doing w/c frequently with well prepared water.

[David Grigor]

So, you're thinking I should just skip the Kalk and go right to the 2 part. So far, I'm only losing a couple ounces of water a day so I probably wouldn't be adding much kalk anyway.

Me personally I'd for sure start off that way. 2 part is super cheap and your more in control with your parameter values much more than with Kalk alone.

Sounds like your less than 1% of evaporation per day which is the general rule for Kalkwasser and would likely need to supplement in addition anyway.

I'd start with the easy to do and hard to screw up method first, then as you feel more comfortable with automating to think about Kalkwasser dosing with redundancies.

Once you have a heavy load, corals can easily consume more than 1 dkh of ALK a day. Eventually the frequency of Water changes needed to keep up and the cost of salt vs. additives will be more maintenance and more cost. Best to be monitored and supplemented daily to keep consistant vs. water changes where it will be a see-saw in between water changes.

[hypertech]

I just ordered the JBJ auto topoff, a lighting upgrade, and a skimmer. I might start losing a little more water with the extra heat from the lights and skimmer pumps.

So far, it has been such a piddly little amount that I'm worried about my forgetfulness resulting in a problem.

I'll skip the kalk for now and go to the 2 part once I get better test kits (and some more money). I don't have any animals right now that really care that much anyway, but now I have a plan.

Thanks for the help.

[David Grigor]

I don't have any animals right now that really care that much anyway


don't underestimate the uptake of ALK/CA just from coraline algae on the LR alone.

[hypertech]

Good point. I do have that and I have noticed my Alk going down at a rate of about 0.5 a week. It started at 5 brand new, empty, and is now (with water changes) leveling out at 4-4.5.

[David Grigor]

what measurements are you using ? 5 dkh is too low. 5 meq ( = 14dkh ) is pretty high alk reading and most salts alone do not mix that high. Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals is closer to 10dkh/3.5meg.

[hypertech]

I'm pretty sure the seachem test is in meq/l. It takes 8 drops to change which if I read the instructions right is 4 meq/l. It only tested 5 once when it is was fresh mixed water only (reef crystals) and brand new (also the first test I ever did so I might have screwed up somehow).

Maybe my test is whacked out ............, although I did run it against the provided reference and it read correctly. I'll try it again against the reference tonight when I do my testing.

[David Grigor]

Freshly mixed Reef Crystals should read closer to 3.5meg/10 Dkh. Never as high as 5 meg/14 dkh.

Never use any PH buffers or purple up product, as these are known to get your Alk way out of whack compared to CA levels......

[hypertech]

I've never added anything.

I'm just thinking its not a real accurate test. The water sample measuring isn't very precise and I've noticed the drops sizes aren't as consistent as I'd like.

If I see a good response from Salifert on the alk test problem thread over on RC, I'll switch to their test.

[David Grigor]

Salifert has always been fine for me. I've seen the posts and quite frankly I don't believe there is an issue. Any test relying on the users interpretation of the color change will make it vary from person to person. I do add CA to mine which will drive down the ALK some so it could test higher than 10dkh freshly mixed.

Really, as long as your test kits are consistant, I really don't care what the actual value is. There is a wide range of acceptable alk levels. So even off by the proposed 3dkh from the thread as long as your not at the low end of the range shouldn't matter. Consistancy is the key. Pick a value and stick with it.

[hypertech]

That's why I want to switch test kits. At best, this test kit has a 0.5 meq/l error which seems like a lot to me (>10% at 4 meq/l). That makes it hard ot know if I really am stable or not.

[Zibba]

Wes,

Did you ever set up the JBL ATO to dose kalk? I just recently set one of these units up to top off w/ RODI. I will be starting to dose kalk soon, but I'm concerned the this ATO will add too much kalk at a time and raise pH too quickly.

[MNGold15]

I have my ato set to run through a kalk rx, that is the way I would recommend doing it.

[hypertech]

Put a teeny tiny pump on it with a valve to slow it down.

I've got it hooked up to a microjet 450 that I'm using with 1/4" tubing at maximum pumping height. My topoff runs about 15 seconds at the most each time it turns on. I think it moves a couple ounces at most.

Just keep in mind that it does appear to have a minimum on time of about 30 seconds or so. If you just lift the float switch and drop it, it will see the switch closed, but it doesn't stop pumping right away. It stops immediately if it has already been pumping a little while.

[wes]

Wes,

Did you ever set up the JBL ATO to dose kalk? I just recently set one of these units up to top off w/ RODI. I will be starting to dose kalk soon, but I'm concerned the this ATO will add too much kalk at a time and raise pH too quickly.

yes, I did set it up to dose at about half saturated half RODI with about 5mL of acetic acid mixed in per gallon. I have it setup with a maxijet with a head of about 4, so not too much shoots in at once. I am thinking I will probably switch out the pump for something slower eventually, but for now the swing isn't too drastic; none of my corals retract their polyps and my ph doesn't swing higher than 8.5 or so.

[Zibba]

the swing isn't too drastic; none of my corals retract their polyps and my ph doesn't swing higher than 8.5 or so.

Good to know. I am also using a Maxi 600. I will likely just continue with the JBL ATO for evap top off and manually dose a 2-part solution until I get pumps (or CA-reactor)...but with a wedding coming up it could be awhile before that fits in the budget.

[David Grigor]

I'm not fond of using such a large pump for Kalkwasser. While during the norm it seems fine. Get a little precipitate build up on the float switch that causes to be less sensative and can end up add to much kalkwasser too fast. Too much can go wrong and will eventually catch up to you unfortunately can end with casualties. Kalkwasser can be your best friend and your worst enemy. Be prepared for the worst not just for the norm.

[Twins Guy]

also be sure that there is no way for water to back-siphon out through your top-off pump/tubing