Help planning 120

[-Ace-]

Well, I am going from my 72 bow to an in wall 4' 120 gal. I don't currently run a sump, but most likely will on the new setup, so this will be a whole new thing for me. To try and keep things simple w/o alot of DIY, I am looking at an all-glass 4' 120 with dual Mega Flows. I am also looking at getting one of they're Mega Flow sumps. I will probably go with (4) of the smaller Tunze nanostreams for circulation. I think I will go with a mag 9.5 or Mag 12 submerged pump- will this pump be adequate? I think the info on the mega Flow units was 600PGH(each) at the head max. Correct me if I am wrong, but this means that a pump may be rated much higher(GHP), but by the time it reaches the top of the tank back in, you are at much less GPH. So with that said, if I have (2) mega flow overflows, I couldn't exceed 1200GPH at the head(head meaning the point it enters the tank?). I would like the pump in the sump, and from what I have heard, magdrives are a good choice. Skimmer will be another challenge. I will be going with a sandbed substrate- not quite a DSB, but close. How am I doing so far?

[hypertech]

The flow is the same wherever you are in the pipe (assuming no diameter changes or splits), so its not like you put a bunch of flow in at the sump and only a little makes it out at the top. The pump has to work harder to pump that high and that means it is able to pump through less water.

So, you need to find a pump that is rated for the flow you want at the head (height from pump to outlet) you want using the diameter pipe you select.

If I were pump shopping for something big, I'd consider an external pump because then you don't have as much heat being added to teh water from the pump.

[patent]

Well, I am going from my 72 bow to an in wall 4' 120 gal. I don't currently run a sump, but most likely will on the new setup, so this will be a whole new thing for me.Memorize the hours for your local home depot.

I will probably go with (4) of the smaller Tunze nanostreams for circulation. I think I will go with a mag 9.5 or Mag 12 submerged pump- will this pump be adequate?I would think so.

You don't need a ton of flow through your sump. If you are pvoviding the flow in the tank with powerheads, I don't see any reason you need a big return pump, and personally I'd suggest you don't want a huge one. You really only need enough flow to match whatever skimmer you have and the flow rate it can handle.

I think its easier to run the tank quietly with a lower return flow.

I would like the pump in the sump, and from what I have heard, magdrives are a good choice. Magdrive, eheim, both good. Ehiem is more expensive, but typically a little better, uses a little less wattage. I use magdrives though.

Skimmer will be another challenge. I'd take a look at an ASM g4 or perhaps an octopus.

[mtfatwork]

my vote would be for a g4 as well, go with the g4+ because it is only like 10 dollars more. Depending on the actual footage of how far it is from sump to the tank, a 9.5 might be all you need. I think RC has a head loss calculator that will tell you how much head loss you get from elbows and such. Get some spa-flex tubing, as you should need less elbows that way, and have less head loss. G4+ runs on a sedra 900 so with no head loss it is almost perfectly matched with a Mag 9.5

[David Grigor]

Best not to get the Megaflow sump until your have finalize your skimmer choice. Just from looking at the megaflow sumps, it would likely limit what skimmers you choose because it is mostly setup for wet/bry application and skimmer compartment may be too small for a number of skimmers.

Best bet usually is just getting a standard glass tank and use as a sump. For a 120g a 40g breeder is a real good choice, if needed you would add baffles yourself to customize for your hardware or have the sump custom made from acrylic. You don't want to limit yourself simply because you already bought the megaflow sump ( and paid alot of money for it ).

Also, depending on your lighting choices and such where heat can be an issue, you may want to look at a good external return pump. Submersables always add more heat to your tank.

[-Ace-]

Thanks for the help thus far. Now I see why I opted to not deal with a sump the first time around. Infact, I run a perfectly good reef right now sumpless, so my decision this time around is pretty much based on the thought that "it's necessary". I am no plumber, nor do I want to be one. The thought of alot of extra noise doesn't excite me either. Sump or sumpless? At this point, the only advantage I see is that you get to hide things like heaters, etc. It seems to be quite an extra cost when invloving a sump. Is it really worth it? Perhaps this is just as debateable issue as substrate options.
Submersables always add more heat to your tank.

I run dual 250 MH w/ dual VHO's for lighting. How much extra heat are we talking about by submerging the pump?

[spsick]

Thanks for the help thus far. Now I see why I opted to not deal with a sump the first time around. Infact, I run a perfectly good reef right now sumpless, so my decision this time around is pretty much based on the thought that "it's necessary". I am no plumber, nor do I want to be one. The thought of alot of extra noise doesn't excite me either. Sump or sumpless? At this point, the only advantage I see is that you get to hide things like heaters, etc. It seems to be quite an extra cost when invloving a sump. Is it really worth it? Perhaps this is just as debateable issue as substrate options.
Submersables always add more heat to your tank.

I run dual 250 MH w/ dual VHO's for lighting. How much extra heat are we talking about by submerging the pump?

No sump really limits you on your skimmer size, and having a 120+ sump, you'll want a decent one, the octopus nw-200 will give you alot of bang for the buck. The 4 nanostreams sounds like a bit much(unless you dont mod them) as my 2 6025's are i little less flow than I would like, but just a little, and turning up my return will fix that( right now im only at like 300gph) so if you're going for 1000ish youll be fine with 2. I was like you and very reluctant to add a sump, but now that I did, i'll never regret it. also, yeah mag 9.5 or 12 will be plenty, and the heat they add wont be noticed in any decent size tank, it will just make you heaters come on a teenie weenie bit less often. btw, my opinion after seeing my tank and then a megaflow tank, those 2 megaflows take up alot of space compared to my corner ones, I'd at least check them both out b4 you buy (they have a megaflow 120 at OD, and you already seen mine.) hope this helps, oh, and get a grounding probe if you love your sps at all, 16 bucks is worth the safety net it provides. i've seen some beautiful sps colonies lost cause a heater or pump went and zapped the tank.

[patent]

my vote would be for a g4 as well, go with the g4+ because it is only like 10 dollars more.

Watch the height though. The g4x won't fit under some stands. Make sure you measure your stand from the bottom of your sump to the top, subtract about 1/2 an inch or so, and the skimmer must be shorter than that. The g4x is 30, the g4 is 24 inches tall. The g4x appears to cost about $25 more, uses a larger pump (and thus more wattage) and is rated for 1/3 more volume.

Unless you stock/feed heavily, I would think either one would be acceptable. The comment about picking the skimmer before you buy the sump is a good one though, nothing worse than having a sump with no room for the skimmer. You can always buy something like a 60 breeder that will fit under a 120 (esp. if you are using an internal pump so you don't need room for the external pump). Get some glass cut at the hardware store for baffles, get some silicon at home depot, and make a bubble trap, and your set.

patent

[patent]

I am no plumber, nor do I want to be one. The thought of alot of extra noise doesn't excite me either. Sump or sumpless? At this point, the only advantage I see is that you get to hide things like heaters, etc. It seems to be quite an extra cost when invloving a sump. Is it really worth it? On a tank this size, not having a sump really kills how much you can keep in it, as HOB skimmers are generally not very good compared to in sump skimmers. There are decent HOB skimmers, but at 120 gal., you are really pushing it, and they are expensive (e.g., deltec).

patent

[-Ace-]

2 megaflows take up alot of space compared to my corner ones

I can't exactly recall, but are your overflows those built in corner overflows, or are they something you bought and functioned on? Did you have one or two overflows?

[-Ace-]

Get some glass cut at the hardware store for baffles, get some silicon at home depot, and make a bubble trap, and your set.

You sure lost me here. Does this have something to do with the "gurgling" thread that was going around?

[spsick]

that's to stop bubbles from the skimmer getting to your return pump, and into the tank

[spsick]

2 megaflows take up alot of space compared to my corner ones

I can't exactly recall, but are your overflows those built in corner overflows, or are they something you bought and functioned on? Did you have one or two overflows?
2, they're the all-glass corner overflow setup( came like that)

[patent]

Get some glass cut at the hardware store for baffles, get some silicon at home depot, and make a bubble trap, and your set.

You sure lost me here. Does this have something to do with the "gurgling" thread that was going around?

Sorry. No, that's a noise issue, this is a bubble in display issue.

Protein skimmers create microbubbles. Most people don't want the bubbles sent back up to their tank, so they create a bubble trap in the sump to get rid of them before the return pump. Basically you divide your sump into two sections, one for the filters, one for the return pump. (You can make it much more complicated if you like, but you said you don't want that). You create the bubble trap by inserting three panes (baffles) of glass in between the sections. The first pane is on the bottom of the glass, and forces the water to flow over it. The second pane is lifted off the bottom, say two inches, and forces the water to flow under it. The third pane is then on the bottom again, and forces the water over it. I grabbed an image off the web to show you:http://seanmcg.com/blog/wp-content/images/IMG_6650.jpg

Basically by making the water take this path you remove the bubbles.

Don't make the first and third panes too high. I don't like how high they are in the image, myself. In my standard 55 gallon (20" high in usable internal space) that I use for a sump, the first and third panes are 10 inches high, the middle is two inches above that (but I should have made it three). The first and third panes are what set the water level in the sump, if you make them too high, your water level has to be high to flow over them. The downside of that is that there is no room for accidents. In particular, when your main pump goes off, some of the water in the main tank (up to the point where the suction breaks) will drain down into the sump. You want the sump to have enough extra space to accommodate this.

This is another thing to keep in mind, you want your suction to break fairly high in the tank. There are lots of ways to do that though, including having all the water return exits up high.

[-Ace-]

Great explanation and example- thanks. My head is hurting.

[spsick]

to add to what patent said, the level of the baffles also regulates the level of water your skimmer sits inch, which, in most cases is ideally 6-10 inches, 7 has worked well for my skimmer, but another inch might be a good idea.
Also, get the first one cut by itself to make sure it fits, I made that mistake with my first sump.

[hypertech]

Wouldn't plexiglass work just as well as glass for baffles? You can get that at home depot and cut it yourself at home with a utility knife.

[patent]

Wouldn't plexiglass work just as well as glass for baffles? You can get that at home depot and cut it yourself at home with a utility knife.

You could probably use just about anything. On my current one I got a 55 for free from a friend, and took the glass hood, cut it up, and used it as baffles. Ugly as all heck, but functional. I've used plastic before too. I'm sure plexiglass would be fine as long as the sillycon holds it in place.

[spsick]

Wouldn't plexiglass work just as well as glass for baffles? You can get that at home depot and cut it yourself at home with a utility knife.

silicone doesn't stick to it as well, and algae sticks to it better, and you have to get the thick, expensive stuff for it to not be flimsy

[David Grigor]

Not difficult. Just didn't want to see you invest a bunch of money on a sump/wetdry and then have the headache of having to make due with a certain sized skimmer becuase you already spent big bucks on a sump.

Choose skimmer first then a sump that it will fit it, custom, prefab or whatever.

Trust me and just about everyone else, once you have a system with a sump for a show tank ( not a nano ) then you will never go back.

[David Grigor]

Plexiglass baffles are fine. True, I would never replace a outside panel of a glass tank with acrylic because it doesn't adhere well and can fall out. But in this case where you put silicone on both sides of the baffle that basically sandwiches it in place, you will be fine. It's been done hundreds of times.....

No more than it costs though, I'd likely just have some glass cut to size at a local shop and use that vs. plexi. but can be done.

[mtfatwork]

Rob, when the time comes, I can come offer my services as a plumber if you need. (Lord knows I have had lots of practice)

[-Ace-]

Thanks Mary. Still planning. . . . . .