Negative Implications of Dead Rock

[hamdogg08]

Most of the time "you get what you pay for." How long will it take for dead rock to become live rock, and what do you have to do differently when using dead rock as opposed to live rock? I'd assume that you'd want to let the rock sit in the take and be colonized or something a little while before adding anything. So what's the scoop on the dead rock?

[REEFSTOCK]

You can "seed" dead rock with some sand and or rock from some one else's tank. That will help speed up the process of the main live thing you want on the rock. Bacteria.
How long it will take to cure will depend on where this base rock came from and how much stuff the bacteria has to kick out of it, and how clean you want it before you start filling it back up with... poo :)

I am totally making these numbers up without any scientific, realistic optimistic or pessimistic research:

Truly fully cured live Rock < week after move
Live rock or so called cured live rock ;p ~ 6 weeks
Base rock seeded ~ 3 months
Base rock unseeded = Base rock + 6 weeks.

This is just for good bacteria growth.

[David Grigor]

The &#37; of dead rock vs. mature LR rock to seed will be the biggest factor.

Trying to use too much dead rock to mature LR can end up with a hair algae mess on the dead rock if you water parameters are not good.

If this is a new tank, personally I wouldn't exceed 50% dead unless your experienced.

[hamdogg08]

Trying to use too much dead rock to mature LR can end up with a hair algae mess on the dead rock if you water parameters are not good.
experienced.
What if you let the tank run for a few weeks with the lights off?

[canit0]

I would cure the rock in a seperate open container with water movement, preffebly with the water from the tank, water change water. You may consider adding live bacteria, am sure there are many opinions on using live bacteria to try jump start life cycle of a tank/live rock?

[David Grigor]

With the lights off, it may get seeded with bacteria but the dead rock still has lots of exposed surface area that until it's seeded with coraline. If/when you turn on the lights without caution and good water parameters ( high alk, high ca, low phosphated ) can become a real headache.

Once you have a good mature system established seeding dead is no big deal when doing so 1 or 2 rocks at a time and can take as little as a couple of weeks. Starting with a high &#37; of dead though can be a challenge and should be left more to the experianced reefers although not impossible from a potential hair algae breakout.

I tried to mentored a guy in Owatanna who didn't want the expense of LR and tried use too much dead % and was a nightmare, got frustrated an quit the hobby before ever really getting started. So as your saying it can work but for the novice you may in fact get what your paid for trying to skimp too much without an already mature system to use for seeding.

Using dead rock has some real advantages both cost and minimizing unwanted critters/algae. That's all I ever use now since I have a way to seed easily with mature rock. But for the novice, using too high a % can become trouble so definately caution giving advice to use and how much.

[hamdogg08]

The plan (so far) would be to use 20-30 pounds of dead rock in addition to about 6 pounds of live rock from my current tank and put everything into a 20 gallon system. After that, I'd run the tank for 3 weeks or so with the lights off, then turn the lights on increasing the duration of the light for 2 weeks. I've read a bit about an algae cycle where certain algae will come and go, but inevitably get overrun by the good coralline algae. Do I have this wrong, or is the hair algae a bit tougher to get rid of?

[David Grigor]

If this were my situation, I'd likely do the opposite. Add the dead rock to the mature tank a few pieces at a time over the course of a week or two then transplant it over to the new tank once you start seeing coraline growing on it ( Assumming your mature system is not also a nano ). I've done it that way lots and lots and lots of times and has gone flawlessly. Take full advantage of your entire mature healthy system to do the seeding for you vs. using only a small &#37; of it.

[hamdogg08]

So could I put the existing LR into the new tank, then put all the dry stuff into the old tank. Then slowly move the dry rock to the new tank?

[Goldpony75]

I beleive what david is getting at is to just put a couple pieces of the dead rock in your existing system and leave it there until you start seeing coraline growth on it. dont remove any live rock from existing system unless you need to make room and then only take out as much as your putting in. remember things you do with a reef tank are in "baby steps" slow and steady is the way to go. hope that helps.

[David Grigor]

No. Put the dead rock in the existing tank a few rocks at a time over the course of a couple weeks, then pull some of the rocks out of the existing tank ( your choise mature or the new rocks ) to use in the new tank after coraline etc. start to show on the new rocks.

When you move the rocks over to the 20g tank after seeded in the mature system you should be good to go.

[Goldpony75]

Sorry David didnt mean to butt in, didnt realize you were still on to respond

[David Grigor]

Of course there are many ways to do it. Your plan can work but may take longer. Without a mature tank for some it's the only option but sounds like you have the luxary to seed the rock in the mature system then just transplant to the 20g and ready to go.

[hamdogg08]

Right now I have a ten gallon that's been set up for about 6-8 weeks with a damsel, and 7lbs of live rock. This is my future quarantine tank for new arrivals. My plan is to make a ten gallon reef tank with a ten gallon sump. All that I have for the reef tank right now is a stand though. Should I buy the live rock before anything else so I can get started on the algae colonization, or should I get the new tank set up before I buy the rock?

[David Grigor]

You lost me...... What size is the mature setup ? 10g ?

Me personally, I'd get everything configured, all the hardware in place, lighting, good refugium and/or skimmer before purchasing the rock. Without good filtration first, you may end up with aglae issue.

While I guess everyone's budgets are different but since your dealing in small quantities, I can't imagine there is any huge savings by doing the high &#37; of dead vs. LR. Just buy a higher percentage of LR if you don't have a mature healthy system to seed with.

[hamdogg08]

The mature setup (if you can call 8 weeks "mature") is the ten gallon. The new setup is a different ten gallon with a ten gallon sump on the bottom. I'm leaning towards the cheapest way to go about this as possible since I'm a poor college kid who spends more time at practice than at work. I don't mind taking a bit more time on this project to save some money. I'm thinking that I'll get enough dead stuff going in the current tank to fill it up, then start putting the new tank together. This way, I'll have a little bit more seeded rock to start with once the tank is ready to be filled. If I ordered 25 lbs of dry rock, I could put 5 in my tank now, and leave the other 20 pounds in the box until I'm ready to use it right?

[David Grigor]

Providing your existing tank doens't have aglae issues and you have good water quality then yes I'd start adding some dead rock to your existing tank say 1 rock at a time until it can't hold anymore. Try and get as much rock seeded for as long as possible before the new setup as possible.

25lbs of rock in a little 10g sounds an awful lot. Can you even fit that much in a 10g. Perhaps going with lower amount you can afford LR instead of dead.

I was expecting your existing tank to be decent sized. 10g is hard to work with for seeding rock. May consider trying to find a local reefer who has room to seed some for you.....

[Goldpony75]

i could seed some rock in my main setup or in my 29 gallon Fowlr both have excellent coraline algae growth.

[Turf]

Well this should be interesting... I just set up my 6th tank and used 100&#37; dead rock for the 1st time as it gave me alot of flexibility time wise and then put about 20Lbs of 'live' rock in the sump. Bring on the algae I need some greens in my diet!!!:banana:

[David Grigor]

It can be done. But need really high end filtration systems and water parameters to pull it off to fight off potential algae issues......which is why I recommend being an experienced reefer to attempt it.

[wes]

I dunno, I threw a whole bunch of unseeded, base rock into my fowlr. It's had almost nothing to seed it. It's taken quite a while (5 months), but now it's filling with coralline and is covered in tunicates and feater dusters. The only hair algae is a small amount on another piece of lava rock I put in there. I should add the rock I've added is 1 full cinder block, 1/2 of another one broken up, some rocks from California beach (well dead and old), and a few lava/lace rocks. Seeded for maybe a month with maybe a few pounds of live rock, now just the base rock is in there. I have had a VERY small bioload, fed lightly (though with flake), skimmed pretty well. other than that, nothing really special. kept up on alk and Ca on occasion, but that's about it.

[hamdogg08]

It can be done. But need really high end filtration systems and water parameters to pull it off to fight off potential algae issues......which is why I recommend being an experienced reefer to attempt it.

You don't learn anything if you don't mess it up!:book2:

[David Grigor]

You don't learn anything if you don't mess it up!:book2:

That mentality won't get you very far in the business world. One mess up can cost a company tens of thousands $$......

I personally strive to do it right the first time, set yourself up for sucesss especially when your dealing with living creatures.

[morty]

Wondering what the definition of "dead" rock has been in this thread. Are we talking about the dry stuff, that's totally dead? What about rock that has been cooking for a few months, with no additions of food other than ammonium chloride to feed bacteria? I ask b/c that's what I have -- it was uncured from Reefer Madness and has been sitting in a tub with powerheads and a skimmer most of this year. I'm certain all life other than bacteria is gone. I'm planning on seeding it like reefstock said, but should I expect the algae problems you're talking aobut?

[REEFSTOCK]

Surface and water, bacteria will come (assuming a stable environment).

Is the rock still shedding dirt?

[David Grigor]

I'm planning on seeding it like reefstock said, but should I expect the algae problems you're talking aobut?

I wouldn't recommend a newbie trying to start a tank with more than 50% dead rock. Correctly sized quality filtration, experience with maintaining good water quality parameters, you should be fine.

[hamdogg08]

That mentality won't get you very far in the business world. One mess up can cost a company tens of thousands $$......


That's why they make sure you know what you're doing before they give you a big responsibility. This tank, however is a learning experience to better allow me to be successful in future tanks. IMO, you need to know what you did wrong before you know what to do right.

[David Grigor]

That's why they make sure you know what you're doing before they give you a big responsibility.

Wouldn't it be great if that was really how it works.....

[Turf]

I'm going to be a pudd and throw this in since we are off topic anyway...:oldman: I think your both kinda right. You have to learn from mistakes but I just assume learn from others however you can't expect it to go perfect and 'in the business world' nudge nudge if a guy gets too anal you loose thousands by wasting time and the opportunity has passed... of course I'm taking what is said to both ends of the spectrum.:beerchug:

[morty]

All (non-bacterial) surface life is decomposed, so no more dirt. I've been adding ammonium chloride to the water.

What is the source of the algae that has been talked about. Is this coming from the fact that 'dead' rock (still dont have a definition of what is considered dead) does not have the full suite of bacteria, including denitrifiers, so the algae bloom comes from accumulated nitrates? Would rock that is devoid of larger critters, but has been kept 'alive' with ammonia, still be considered live, and so less prone to the tank having algae problems?

[hamdogg08]

All (non-bacterial) surface life is decomposed, so no more dirt. I've been adding ammonium chloride to the water.

What is the source of the algae that has been talked about. Is this coming from the fact that 'dead' rock (still dont have a definition of what is considered dead) does not have the full suite of bacteria, including denitrifiers, so the algae bloom comes from accumulated nitrates? Would rock that is devoid of larger critters, but has been kept 'alive' with ammonia, still be considered live, and so less prone to the tank having algae problems?

This is where I was thinking about getting the dry rock:http://www.twopartsolution.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76&products_id=160 I haven't searched too close though, so I don't know if this is a deal or not. It just seems like a really cost-effective way to get a reef tank going.

[hamdogg08]

OK, so new theory:
I've done some reading in Reefkeeping magazine, and there is an article that seemed to make sense to me.(http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.php)

It talks about how there is an order of lifeforms that are prevalent in a reef. The first are just the simple bacteria that live in the rock/sand/everywhere. Next comes the crappy algae, then the 'pods', then the better algae. The algae being such a big issue is just a matter of waiting for that part of the cycle to be completed according to what this article is saying.

I'm planning on buying enough dead rock to fill my current 10 gallon tank and have a bit more rock for seeding the new tank. Once the new tank is ready, I am going to transfer the newly live rock into the main 10 gallon display, and the rest of the box will go into the sump. After 3 months, the algae should be pretty strong, and I will get some inverts to take care of the algae (I'm new to the saltwater stuff so I'm not 100&#37; sure exactly what I'll be getting though). Three months later, the algae will be eaten and the better corallines will start growing. After those 3 months (6 months total), I'd start adding corals to the tank.

I've rushed tanks before, and don't want to rush a reef tank, especially one this small. While the 6 months are crawling by, I plan on adding little things like LED's, a refugium, or a calcium reactor. Those are a whole other animal though.

[Turf]

I'd talk to the guys/gals on here about calc reactors... they really are not as hard as their made out to be and once it is set they pretty much run on auto pilot for a long time.

[wes]

yeah, set it up and spend the time learning and aquiring new stuff. Keep your eyes out on here, there's tons of deals quite often. I'd just recommend doing lots of w/c while you're waiting to get a better setup.

[David Grigor]

I'm just refering to all the surface area that in the absence of coraline algae has a better chance of nuisance algae taking hold in less than prestene enviroment ( which for a newbie is a big challenge ). Once hair and othe nuisance algae takes hold now you've got a real mess to deal with that can set you back months trying to get under control. Water parameters and good filtration methods are critical to keep the algae from growing. Most newbies have many learning curves, part of the learning curves is usually purchasing inadequate hardware to start. Understanding how to keep ALK/CA/PH levels elevated and consistant and methods to keep phosphates low that any newbie without a good mentor will face.

I personally don't except the notion that during initial setup that you will have any algae cycles when done right. But as mentioned newbies ( including myself when I started ) rarely have that ability right out of the gate so I don't recommend adding the additional challenges of using a high percentage of dead rock to the mix.

In this case where your only talking 20 lbs, the extra cost compared to the overall cost of a setup is pretty minimal and IMO not really worth trying to save a buck or two a pound.

[hamdogg08]

I'm just refering to all the surface area that in the absence of coraline algae has a better chance of nuisance algae taking hold in less than prestene enviroment ( which for a newbie is a big challenge ). Once hair and othe nuisance algae takes hold now you've got a real mess to deal with that can set you back months trying to get under control.

I take it that hair algae is one of those algae that isn't part of the cycle ones. What's the cause of it and how do you get rid of it? With freshwater you can add something to eat just about any type of algae. I don't think a flyingfox would live too long in my saltwater tank if hair algae starts to be a problem though.

In reference to the coralline algae, will they grow on their own, or do they need to have high calcium/alkalinity?

[David Grigor]

To accelerate coraline aglae you want high CA/ALK/PH levels and low phosphates plus you want a decent amount of coraline to exist to seed with. In a mature system, coraline can start to show on dead rocks in as little as 10days. Wes example was something like 5 months that's a big difference.

Yes, it doesn't take water parameters to be off by much for hair algae to take over ( which can be a real challenge for a newbie as most start out with inadequate filtration methods/hardware without a good mentor ). Once it does, it can take months of pristine water conditions to get it back under control. There are no magic potions/additive to solve hair algae issues that won't killing your corals or disturbing your bacteria levels.

[morty]

I don't think a flyingfox would live too long in my saltwater tank if hair algae starts to be a problem though.

No, but I've read that mollies can be acclimated to SW, and that they love eating hair algae :smile:

Coralline algae should grow if Ca/alk and other params (including light)are right and it is not outcompeted by some other type of algae (which shouldnt happen if the first part is true), and it is seeded from somewhere.

[David Grigor]

BTW: I'd add the refugim from the beginning not waiting 6 months especially since most skimmers choices for a 10g are pretty limited and in some cases pretty worthless at exporting nutrients. Macro algae in refugium is a good way to export nutrient and outcompete hair algae in the show portion of the tank.

I've had really good results from refugium/mud systems on nanos.

[wes]

BTW: I'd add the refugim from the beginning not waiting 6 months especially since most skimmers choices for a 10g are pretty limited

big time agreement. it's EASY to mod a regular HOB filter to be a fuge, and it'll be well worth it. you could probably find a prizm skimmer for cheap for it. rated for 75 gallons, but I wouldn't use one for a tank larger than 30 or 40.

[hamdogg08]

Funny you mentioned a fuge. I was thinking about adding a little 5 gallon fuge to the setup too. The stand that I got has a shelf on it, and if I have enough room, I was going to look into the macro algaes. That's a little way down the list though.

Would I want to use the sump as a refugium? I thought that you wanted less flow rate in those. What would be better, a sump full of live rock, or a sump full of the macro algae?

[David Grigor]

A little 10g, your not going to be running super high flow through anyways so that should not be a concern for a refugium/mud system. With limited space, Sump is the most logical place to put it.

The liverock in the show portion should be adequate for biological filtration. Sump space is better served for refugium/mud system.

You really want to have this setup from the beginning when you run the new tank especially if using dead rock. You need all the exports you can get to help keep hair algae from taking over. I would go as far to say, delay your new setup until you can get this incorporated into the configuration if it's a money/budget issue.

[hamdogg08]

A little 10g, your not going to be running super high flow through anyways so that should not be a concern for a refugium/mud system. With limited space, Sump is the most logical place to put it.


I've read that you should circulate 10-15 times the total system volume per hour. Is this the general rule of thumb? If so, is that an ok flow rate for the fuge/sump?


The liverock in the show portion should be adequate for biological filtration. Sump space is better served for refugium/mud system.

You really want to have this setup from the beginning when you run the new tank especially if using dead rock. You need all the exports you can get to help keep hair algae from taking over. I would go as far to say, delay your new setup until you can get this incorporated into the configuration if it's a money/budget issue.

Does the fuge need mud in it, or could I put coral. I've been looking into deep sand beds, and was maybe thinking of trying a DSB in my sump. I haven't found much info on them though, so it's just an idea at this point. Also what kind of macro algae would be good to use? I've seen a lot of stuff about Chaeto around. Is this the preferred macro algae to use?

[sea monkey]

I find that because dead rock is very white and reflects light better it grows algae faster in the beginning. To me this isn't a big deal, get some snails and let the tank do its thing, the algae will go away on it's own. Sitting for a while without live stock is prolly good for a new tank anyways.

If you are not the type of person that likes to wait, pay the premium for fully cured live rock : )

[David Grigor]

Its all relatively, 10 to 15 times when your talking 10g is only 150gph. Any refugium will handle that type of flow and wouldn't try to go any slower. I never really bought into the notion of running water through refugium slower anyhow.

Chaeto is the preferred because it grows fast and doesn't go sexual ( ie: turns clear and releases back into the water ).

Mud has worked very well for me so I stick with it particularly in nanos without a skimmer. I use the miracle mud, whether it's worth it or the off-brands are just as good or even just regular sand would it work just as well I can't really say. I use the ain't broke don't fix it mentality with regards to the mud.

[hamdogg08]

I would go as far to say, delay your new setup until you can get this incorporated into the configuration if it's a money/budget issue.

Should I be putting the dry rock in the ten gallon that's already going to get it started, or should I wait until the new system is set up until I make the dry rock live?

[David Grigor]

Yep you want to get that process started ASAP as long as the current 10g doesn't have algae issues. Put as much as you can fit in there but add just 1 rock at a time over the course of a few weeks and closely monitor.

[hamdogg08]

Ok, next purchase is the rock! Are there any other cheaper sources than the link that I had listed above(ok so maybe i forgot the link and just put it in) for a little over three dollars per pound?

[David Grigor]

Yep, Ryan and Andres at twopartsolutions here in the cities will be about the best you can get for such small quantities. This rock is very light, 25 lbs of this rock is way more than you need for a 10g so you will have extra. You could probably do a 40-50g tank with 25lbs.

[hamdogg08]

Good deal. I didn't know they were from the TC's! I guess that I didn't look either though. The plan is to just keep upgrading the tanks as my experience and bank account grow. It'll get used eventually! However, I just e-mailed them to see if I'd be able to pick some up/order a lesser amount since they're in the metro area and I'd be able to pick it up.

[hamdogg08]

I grabbed about 8 pounds of the dry stuff from something fishy today. The next order of business: to find the best way to add calcium to a 10 gallon. Thanks for the help everyone!