lighting help for broke college student!

[TimmyG]

So I was using my friends Odysea T-5 HO light on my 29 gallon marine tank. he is selling the light now so I have to get another for the tank.

the tank houses about 60 lbs of live rock, random damsels, and a wrasse. I want to add coral sometime along with an angelfish or lion fish.

what is the best type of lights and brands that I should look at? also where should I look at getting it from?

now keep in mind that I don't have a lot of cash and need to spend as little as possible! I have been checking the LFS and other online sites.

[coldwaterreefer]

the tank is to small in my oppion for a lion but what angel are you looking at?

[patent]

the tank is to small in my oppion for a lion but what angel are you looking at?
Probably too small for an angel too, especially with a bunch of fish already in it.

I'd skip those two fish, save that money and put it into a decent t5 retro kit. Could probably also do a MH pendant, but I personally wouldn't on a tank that small, just my personal preference.

How many bulbs depends on what kind of corals you want. Also, do you need a complete fixture, or are you comfortable enough with a little wiring (easy, I can do it) and some wood working to build a hood?

patent

[TimmyG]

I was told that I could get any of the dwarf angels and lions!
something like a Zebra Lionfish or Fuzzy Lionfish.

as for the angels I wanted a Flame Angelfish, Coral Beauty Angelfish, or Pygmy Angelfish. but I was told I can only have 1 or they start to kill each other.

[TimmyG]

Im fine with a little wiring (I do it all day long in cars) but I do not have a hood for it (just glass lids) and it is a rod stand so I thought it would look funny with the wood top.

[mtfatwork]

you could hang a mh pendant from the cieling.

[patent]

you could hang a mh pendant from the cieling.

Yeah, probably would look good with a rod stand. Some of the premade t5 hoods would look good too, but many of them aren't all that great as far as light quality, as a retro fit would be.

I was told that I could get any of the dwarf angels and lions!
something like a Zebra Lionfish or Fuzzy Lionfish. as for the angels I wanted a Flame Angelfish, Coral Beauty Angelfish, or Pygmy Angelfish. but I was told I can only have 1 or they start to kill each other.

Well, opinions vary. I can't speak for the lionfish, as I lack experience with them, but I wouldn't ever put a dwarf angel in less than a 55. They need places to roam and things to nip at. Too small of an aquarium isn't good for them.

Personally, I've noticed that the folks at the fish stores (online and local) tend to think fish can go in smaller containers than I do, but then I'm not trying to sell anything. We have a couple good stores that don't seem to do that.

patent

[Sizzlersonthebrain]

I was told that I could get any of the dwarf angels and lions!
something like a Zebra Lionfish or Fuzzy Lionfish.

as for the angels I wanted a Flame Angelfish, Coral Beauty Angelfish, or Pygmy Angelfish. but I was told I can only have 1 or they start to kill each other.

no no no no no no do you think a midget would like living in a box the size of a gass station bathroom? you will just stress them and cuase early death.

[David Grigor]

29g is absolutely too small for the fish you mention especially if you have 60lbs of rock, sounds like there isn't any swimming room with all the rock.

Little gobies, clownfish, bangaii cardinals are more the kind of fish you should be looking at.

I'd still stick with a t5 setup, for a poor college student likely don't want to have to deal with heat issues from MH. A good quality 2X24W T5 retro with icecap slr reflectors will be a good fit for a community type tank with various corals. PCs can be cheaper but won't get as good of results.

[hamdogg08]

no no no no no no do you think a midget would like living in a box the size of a gass station bathroom? you will just stress them and cuase early death.

I believe they prefer to be called "little people":oldman:

[wes]

the pygmy and flameback would work, and a dwarf lion could, but with an uber low competition, as is you've got a full stock imo. 60lbs, it must be STUFFED into there. Any idea how much actual water volume you have?

[TimmyG]

I'm not sure how much water volume I have because I am not 100% sure exactly how much rock I really have in there. I got the rock from someone who was taking down there 46 bow tank with a sump so he just gave me all the rock for cheap! I was only going to take like 30 lbs of it but he gave me it all for the same price. I was going to take out some of the smaller pieces but I know that as of right now it does not really matter with the fish I have in there.

[patent]

I'm not sure how much water volume I have because I am not 100% sure exactly how much rock I really have in there. I got the rock from someone who was taking down there 46 bow tank with a sump so he just gave me all the rock for cheap! I was only going to take like 30 lbs of it but he gave me it all for the same price. I was going to take out some of the smaller pieces but I know that as of right now it does not really matter with the fish I have in there.

You just need to buy a bigger tank, like a 72 bowfront. (I'll have one for sale soon :wink: :biggrin: :biggrin: )

[TimmyG]

that might be an options. but as for the light I was looking at this one online because the price was more what I would be willing to pay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/30-inch-ODYSSEA-HIGH-COMPACT-AQUARIUM-LIGHT-130W-V4_W0QQitemZ300135336537QQihZ020QQcategoryZ46314QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[dougers31]

I don't know, I've heard some bad things about odyssea light fixtures.....you usually get what you pay for, and sometimes less. :confused:

[David Grigor]

I concur. Do searches on the various reef forums regarding Odyssea. If that's all you can afford, then your better off just saving your money until you can get something better.

[TimmyG]

well is using my fluorescent light with a marine bulb going to be good enough until I can get something nicer?

because I have been looking online and in the LPS and I am unable to bring myself to paying more for just a light then I have invested into the tank all together! even more-so when I only have a few little fish in there and thats it.

[TimmyG]

no no no no no no do you think a midget would like living in a box the size of a gass station bathroom? you will just stress them and cuase early death.

I think all the fish that I listed on get 2-3" max of like 4"! and if thats the only bigger sized fish in the tank I dont think he would be crying to much about it!

[David Grigor]

well is using my fluorescent light with a marine bulb going to be good enough until I can get something nicer?


Good enough for what ? Fish only sure. Any Corals no. Maybe some mushrooms that's about it.

The tank is usually the cheapest part. Lighting is often more expensive than the other hardware. The ole saying you get what you pay for holds true for the most part in lighting. If it's cheap there is usually a good reason for it.

I promise you'll be trying to unload it to buy something better ( that is if it even work for that long ) and will be lucky to get anything for it. There is very little market for a used PCs especially low quality China knock offs.

If you don't have the money now wait until you do. Best to put the money towards a decent light to start with instead of throwing good money after bad.

Try to sell off some of that excess rock to put towards some decent lights.

Angelfish like to roam around and pick at rocks. I wouldn't put one in a little 29g. I don't really care what size the other fish are.

[TimmyG]

not an angelfish, dwarf angels! they are just little guys (only a few in.) not the full size one that get a foot or so. so he would be the same size as the other fish!

[patent]

not an angelfish, dwarf angels! they are just little guys (only a few in.) not the full size one that get a foot or so. so he would be the same size as the other fish!

The size isn't the only important thing in determining what a fish needs to survive. You need to understand what the fish does, eats, and lives. I know that most of the online fish stores and some local fish stores simply seem to do a calculation -- if it gets to 6 inches, it needs a 30 gallon. If to 4 inches, it needs a 20 gallon, but that is totally ignoring what the fish actually needs to survive, and the result is a ton of prematurely dead fish.

A mandarin is a very small fish, yet despite what the average LFS says, real world experience proves very few live for long in a 29. Why is that? The 29 doesn't have the things the mandarin needs to live. Unless you supplement quite regularly with pods, have a large fuge, or something of that nature, a 29 doesn't grow enough of them to keep a mandarin fat and healthy.

Even a small hippo tang is going to be unhappy in a small tank, not because he is physically too big, but because he likes to cruise around and nip at things, and in a small tank he doesn't have room to do that.

A dwarf angel might not be any bigger than other fish that fit in a 29, but when you compare what he does during his typical day to what a damsel or a clown does, you'll see that he covers much, much more ground, and if he's healthy, he is cruising around an nipping at the rock all over the place. The fact is, he needs the room to move, he needs the rock, and he needs the things to eat that a larger tank provides. I've got both clowns, chromis, and a dwarf angel in my tanks (a large display and a small hospital tank). If you want, stop by some time and I'll let you watch my clown and my coral beauty, and compare what they do in the tank. One is fine in a 29, the other, IMHO, would be way cramped. Both are well under 4 inches.

You can believe guys like David, who aren't trying to sell you anything, or you can believe some of these stores that take your money, now and later when you need to buy another fish to replace the one that just mysteriously gave up and died for unknown reasons. If you don't want to listen to good advice when it conflicts with your personal desire to have that cool fish, odds are you will learn soon enough, and kill off fish in the mean time.

>>And in the interest of full disclosure, I have to put myself in the same suspect category as the fish store, as I will have a tank for sale soon enough. <<

patent

[David Grigor]

not an angelfish, dwarf angels!

I'm talking about dwarf angels ! They like to roam around and pick at things. Not much room to roam on a 29g even less so with lots of rock. Like I said, I could care less how small or how many other fish or how big the dwarf angel can get.....size is not the point. Behavior is.

For a 29g you should be looking at fish that typically stay in one place like many types gobies, clownfish, royal grammas, blennies and the like, or fish that typically just hover around like Bangaii Cardinal fish.

You can do it, nobody is going to stop you its your tank and your livestock. I have a little 29g tank in my son's room with far less rock and more open space with excellent filtration and I still wouldn't do it.

If you want more options for fish best solution is to get a bigger tank that would be more suitable.

[dougers31]

Crap!!! I was all set to get a cherub/pygmy angel for my future 29 gal reef with a 15 gal sump, and now I need to find a fish to take his place.... Any ideas anybody?:confused: Preferably something inexpensive, has some purple coloring and is not a damsel.

[dougers31]

Ha! I just realized this thread was on lighting. :doh:

[patent]

Crap!!! I was all set to get a cherub/pygmy angel for my future 29 gal reef with a 15 gal sump, and now I need to find a fish to take his place.... Any ideas anybody?:confused: Preferably something inexpensive, has some purple coloring and is not a damsel.

purple firefish, and royal gramma come to mind, but I'm not experienced with either, so do your research to see if they fit with your system.

[David Grigor]

There are some other purple dottybacks/pseudochromis too. However royal gramma and other dottybacks can be aggressive towards other fish. Definately would be the last fish to add. Firefish as long as they are with other docile fish do well, get spooked can easily jump so covered top or screening in back of a canopy would be recommended.

I've never kept a cherub to know what the behavior is. Flame and Coral Beauty I wouldn't, 4' tank would be the recommended, 58g or 65g would be iffy. Bicolor angel I wouldn't either for different reasons, they really need some sponge in there diet which is hard to duplicate for long term survival.

[dougers31]

Thanks, I was thinking of a purple firefish as a possibility, but I have never been able to keep a reg/orange f.fish alive for more than 2 years, so I'm not sure I want to try one.

[TimmyG]

so back to the light then, from what I getting from this is that there is really nothing I can do with this tank!

[patent]

so back to the light then, from what I getting from this is that there is really nothing I can do with this tank!
LOL, was that the subject of this thread?

If you got the light you linked, you could certainly keep mushrooms, polyps, things like that.

It might only be a temporary fix until you collected the insurance money from your house burning down though, and at that time you could probably buy a better light fixture for your replacement tank.

Personally, I would try to save up to get a better light - 2-300 range. Either save for a used MH hood, or save for a t5 fixture, or retrofit. Retrofit might not work well for you though if you don't want the wood look on the top. Otherwise I tend to think its a nice solution for the budget minded type.

Given what you want for fish, it might be a better idea to start by buying another tank. You can get a used standard 55 and stand really cheaply, see craigslist, or you can get a RR tank for somewhat more, which does give you more options but also costs more.

Decide what you want for fish and corals long term, and start buying pieces to match. E.g., if you really, really want that angel, don't buy a light hood for your current tank as chances are really good you'll be pitching it soon enough. Just buy a 55 or bigger, and put your current fish in it until you get the angel. If you really, really want to keep SPS, you need to account for that as well. I am far from an SPS guru, but for a beginner trying SPS, you probably want a RR tank, sump, skimmer, better lights (full T5 system or MH), etc. If you only want mushrooms, a PC light system would work, or a smaller T5 would work as well.

All JMHO.

patent

[TimmyG]

Given what you want for fish, it might be a better idea to start by buying another tank. You can get a used standard 55 and stand really cheaply, see craigslist, or you can get a RR tank for somewhat more, which does give you more options but also costs more.


So I already have a 75 gallon, 55 gallon, and a 40 long. but the only thing is they have cichlids (all but the 40L has my feeder fish) in them and I don't think I'll be letting them go anytime soon.

as of the last few day I have just put 2 (t-8) fluorescent lights on the tank. one is called a Power-Glo and the other is a Marine-Glo. are there going to be any corals that I can add to the tank with just this type of light set-up. as I found out all the fish I want are out of the question!

[patent]

as of the last few day I have just put 2 (t-8) fluorescent lights on the tank. one is called a Power-Glo and the other is a Marine-Glo. are there going to be any corals that I can add to the tank with just this type of light set-up. as I found out all the fish I want are out of the question!

I think its likely that any coral would slowly die. Do you know the frequencies of the light on these? I think the Marine glo is actinic, not sure on the other one. If the frequency is what the shroom needs, and you place it high in the tank, you probably have enough Watts that a mushroom would linger for some time, but not enough for them to grow. These probably aren't the right frequencies, as I'm assuming they are intended for freshwater planted tanks.

All of the above is just a guess, as I've never raised corals at that low of a light level.

[TimmyG]

here are the links for both lights on drsfostersmith.com;

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3816&cm_mmc=LiveAquaria_DFS_Links-_-Fish_Supplies-_-LiveAquaria_Gen_Page-_-Lighting&ref=3969&subref=AA&N=2004+113350

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3812&cm_mmc=LiveAquaria_DFS_Links-_-Fish_Supplies-_-LiveAquaria_Gen_Page-_-Lighting&ref=3969&subref=AA&N=2004+113350

I have the 20w 24" (T-8) bulbs for both of them.

[David Grigor]

Some mushrooms is about it with Normal output t8 bulbs.

A two bulb T5s retro setup you could do for:

2X24W ballast $39.95
Two Icecap SLR reflectors at $18.95 each,
2 T5 endcaps with standoffs, $15 each,
2 bulbs $22 each,

= $152 + shipping

Build a light box for about $20 in wood, DC fan for $6. Steal an old 12v transformer from an old wireless phone or toy.

So instead of spending $115 for a crappy light, you can build a decent for $180. Many of the components could be reused or added onto easily.

I'd wait save up $65 and get something decent that can grow with you vs. spending $115 on a PC light your gonna be stuck with or just give it away.

Unfortunately this hobby does take money unless you have a rich uncle.....

[TimmyG]

well like I said earlier money is the big issue with this. also I don't want a wood top as it would make the tank look ugly and miss match the style with a rod iron stand. from what I have found out I am not going to be able to get anything for this tank so I am going to be stuck with the plain T-8 lights that I already have.

[David Grigor]

Painted/stained black, it won't look any more ugly or mismatched that the black fixture your thinking of buying. Rod Iron isn't exactly sexy looking either IMO.......

It's your tank and your money ( or lack there of ) so you can have your opinion but sounds pretty close minded to me.

If you can't save up $65 more bucks. Honestly, might as well get out of the hobby now because your in for some pretty big road blocks ahead and alot of headaches from lack of proper hardware.

[TimmyG]

If you can't save up $65 more bucks. Honestly, might as well get out of the hobby now because your in for some pretty big road blocks ahead and alot of headaches from lack of proper hardware.

its not that I cant save it up! its the fact that college has cost me more then $80K and with not having a full time job yet i am not spending my money so frivolously!

now when I'm able to get a full time job and I am not going to be risking having to move I would be more willing to spend some more money on saltwater.

and as for $60 more? where are you getting this # from because the T-8's that are on there are paid for. I have already been talked out of the other lights I was looking at by the other members on here and now I'm just finding out what I am able to do with what I have.

[patent]

here are the links for both lights on drsfostersmith.com;

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3816&cm_mmc=LiveAquaria_DFS_Links-_-Fish_Supplies-_-LiveAquaria_Gen_Page-_-Lighting&ref=3969&subref=AA&N=2004+113350

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3812&cm_mmc=LiveAquaria_DFS_Links-_-Fish_Supplies-_-LiveAquaria_Gen_Page-_-Lighting&ref=3969&subref=AA&N=2004+113350

I have the 20w 24" (T-8) bulbs for both of them.

I think I'd be more comfortable with one more T-8 on there, if you can manage it, preferably something in the 10K range for a bulb. That said, I think you can do some mushrooms if high in your tank. Given the amount of live rock you have, I would think getting high in the tank is doable. Also, you should look for lower light demanding mushrooms (e.g., avoid ricordia).

Some shrooms can also be target fed mysis, etc. I have a set in my tank that I target feed from time to time, and I would think that would help.

patent

[David Grigor]

and as for $60 more? where are you getting this # from

You were going to spend $89+25 shipping = $115 on the Odyssea fixture. I laid out a plan for $180 that's $65.

[dougers31]

Hey, I have some blue spot shrooms that are healthy and reproducing in a 10 gal. tank with 1- 15watt 50/50 bulb. Some day when I'm able to make it to a meeting I'll give you some or trade if you'd like. they are practically indestructible IMO. You can add another 15 - 20 watt bulb with a cheap light fixture from walmart.... about 6 to 10 bucks.
Otherwise if you want to get some metal halide lighting I would just wait till someone on here has a used one for sale and jump all over that. :greenguy:

[TimmyG]

yeah, I think a used light is going to be the best bet as of right now. It would be nice to go bigger but as of right now I dont have the $$$, time, and room for that.

[dougers31]

There is a 50/50 chance that I will make it to my first meeting (tues?) I'll prolly bring a few shrooms if I remember.

[TimmyG]

I'm planing on being there but the only thing I would be worried about would be if I don't have the right lights that I'll just end up killing them! I also am going to keep the eyes open for someone selling a light that will work for this tank.

[TimmyG]

ok, so I did a post in the classified for a WTB light.
there are a few different ones that people are trying to sell. a lot of coralife but also a few others like finnex. what should I look at getting? what brands seem to work the best?

[David Grigor]

Buying used lighting can be very tricky because especially in PC fixtures ( where about 10 months is all a bulb is really worth ), the cost of replacing the bulbs plus the asking price for the fixture can likely be at or close to buying new. I personally never trust the bulb estimates and figure new bulbs into the price to see if worth it or not if you get a few months out of the used bulbs that's
just gravy..


Coralife is probably the most common becasue mass produced and low cost.

Hopefully this is just an interim solution as most people are getting rid of PCs for the same reason. Low cost but lacking in peformance.

[wes]

I found super cheap bulbs on ebay that seem to be working just fine.

[TimmyG]

do you know what brand they are?

[wes]

sealife, maybe? I have 75%10k 25%420nm actinic and I like that well enough. I was even getting some mille to turn bright purple before I moved.

[TimmyG]

well if I got that coralife would I be set for more types of stuff or is that still going to be limited light?

[MNGold15]

You will be limited to maybe a few LPS, softies and zoas and stuff like that. I have never herd of many sps growing under pcs other that maybe caps and things like that, (I have a nasty orange one growing like a weed in my biocube). It depends on how many bulbs you can get over the tank.

[wes]

I have some SPS under PC. I have a scripps staghorn that I've just started fragging that started from a colony, a purple mille that's just getting back it's purpleness after my move, a couple caps, a tri-color that's grown quite a bit, and a couple that I'm not positive what they are, and a couple monti caps.

I think that it'd be harder to keep parameters stable in a 10g vs. the lighting requirements.

[wkjames]

I didn't read the whole thread, but you should check: http://www.tcmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2102

[TimmyG]

???I did??? that was one of the lights I was asking about getting! I just didn't know if it will meet my needs.