alk/high- calc/low ??

[Dhummel]

i'm running a calcium rx
here were my results today:

calc: 390
alk : 15.7

ph in calc rx is 6.55
ph in tank is 8.25

the drip rate is somewhat fast from the efluient
bubble count from CO2 is slow
not sure what i need to do to correct it?
how can i lower the alk for now?

[MAXreefer]

Are you testing the Alk with the Elos test kit?

[Dhummel]

salifert

[tjp]

if your topping off with pickling lime, I'd just turn off the calcium reactor and see what happens.
you might need to add more or less lime to the top off drum, try to top off only when lights are off.

[MAXreefer]

salifert

ok..Never mind then.
Just know there are still a lot of Elos test kits out there with the wrong instructions.
Was just a thought

[Dhummel]

if your topping off with pickling lime, I'd just turn off the calcium reactor and see what happens.
you might need to add more or less lime to the top off drum, try to top off only when lights are off.

Terry,
i cut back on the lime in top off by half because was raising the ph high at night.
wondering if i should turn off the CO2 to lower the alk??
i keep having to adjust the efluient to keep the flow constant.
wondering if the flow is too fast??
would that cause the alk to go high

[kvmn]

turn your bubble down to zero ,,,then add calcium by hand up to 450 then test and wait until your alk and cal level out and start Cax again
also check media if its getting low,,,

[Dhummel]

turn your bubble down to zero ,,,then add calcium by hand up to 450 then test and wait until your alk and cal level out and start Cax again
also check media if its getting low,,,

i did refill the calc rx about 3 weeks ago
just added calc suppliment to bump up calc (2 part )
not sure about this:
( start Cax again )
you saying to turn off rx

thanks corry

[RaysReef]

Right now with the new data on Calcification, your not too far off...with 8.25 ph your alk should be around 14. Checkout DGs thread on Calcification there is a chart there as well that explain a whole lot. I'm still absorbing the change, but definately makes sense, when I'm running 8.1 @ dkh 12

I believe to be efficient with Calcification a PH of 8 dkh of 10 is ideal.

[Dhummel]

i guess i was thinking the alk was high to my reading.
do you know where the thread is on that?
i turned the co2 off to lower the alk, good idea or leave it?
or turn the bubble count down?
why was my calc soo low then, i realyze the co2 will lower that but that low ??

[RaysReef]

http://www.tcmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20980

How are you raising your PH and Alk? Kalkwasser, soda ash, buffer?

[Dhummel]

just found it by searching...thanks

[Dhummel]

http://www.tcmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20980

How are you raising your PH and Alk? Kalkwasser, soda ash, buffer?

i raise the ph at night with lime in the top off.
haven't touched the alk at all.
why was my calc as low as it was.

[RaysReef]

i raise the ph at night with lime in the top off.
haven't touched the alk at all.
why was my calc as low as it was.

With the increase of alk with your PH your calcification is probably better absorbed by your hard corals. Reason why your CA is on the low side, but still in good standings @ 390.

WHere is your MAG at?

[David Grigor]

Tune your CA reactor by ALK. Don't even look at CA for now.

Alk of 15 is too high for my liking. So either lower your bubble count or raise the internal pH a little depending on how you like to tune it.

Once you get your alk stablilized where you want it ( around 10dkh is pretty safe target ) then do a one time CA adjustment to get your CA where you want. Your good to go.

CA reactor will then add CA/ALK in the proper ratios from that point on.

Adding kalkwasser is fine but it too adds CA/ALK so you need to compensate for the additional by lowering the reactor. If you continue to use kalkwasser best to do so consistantly, otherwise you have to keep tweeking the reactor based on how much kalk you add.

[RaysReef]

less saturation on your ATO, if your planning on lowering your PH/alk slowly within 3-5 days instead of a big WC, Don't want that ALK shock, IMO

[David Grigor]

As far as trying to answer the whole why is CA that low really not worth worrying about.

If you get the alk steady, make your one time adjustment and move forward.

Very likely the alk vs. CA ratio was out of whack before you ever started the reactor if you didn't make that one time adjustment.

If at any point pH got too high from overdosing Kalkwasser or something the CA can fall out.

Also if you fresh saltwater is out of whack compared to your normal tank readings it can throw things off gradually as well.

There will be a negligable amount deposited on heaters, powerheads and other things that generate heat but nothing major.

Under normal circumstances CA should follow your Alk levels at the normal ratio of 1 dkh of alkalinity to 18-20ppm of Calcium. Since both the Kalk and CA reactor add in the proper ratios you should be fine.

[David Grigor]

less saturation on your ATO, if your planning on lowering your PH/alk slowly within 3-5 days instead of a big WC, Don't want that ALK shock, IMO

Actually, I think you should keep doing the kalkwasser normally. You need to tune your reactor with that in mind. Otherwise once you start the kalkwasser back up then you levels will rise and will have to retune the reactor again.

Make your adjustment on the reactor side. Either reducing the bubble count or increase the internal PH. Do so gradually until it stabalizes at the desired alk.


ALK changes are very dangerous when it's a sudden increase. Normally lowering isn't a problem but yes, the slower the better.

[Dhummel]

As far as trying to answer the whole why is CA that low really not worth worrying about.

If you get the alk steady, make your one time adjustment and move forward.

Very likely the alk vs. CA ratio was out of whack before you ever started the reactor if you didn't make that one time adjustment.

If at any point pH got too high from overdosing Kalkwasser or something the CA can fall out.

Also if you fresh saltwater is out of whack compared to your normal tank readings it can throw things off gradually as well.

There will be a negligable amount deposited on heaters, powerheads and other things that generate heat but nothing major.

Under normal circumstances CA should follow your Alk levels at the normal ratio of 1 dkh of alkalinity to 18-20ppm of Calcium. Since both the Kalk and CA reactor add in the proper ratios you should be fine.

David
that all makes a lot of sence now, helped very much
at times the ph in the tank would get up to 8.37 during the day with lights all on.
i'll adjust the bubble count and see what happens from there.

(If at any point pH got too high from overdosing Kalkwasser or something the CA can fall out.)
from this statement i was adding more lime in the top off but have cut back now.
so would having a lot of lime in the top off cause the alk to rise?

[David Grigor]

For sure both Alk and CA rise in the proper ratios. That's the #1 reason why people use kalkwasser.

So yes you will have to compensate.

An example of just how much is added:

If you add 1.25% of the tank volume each day in saturated limewater, you'll be adding the equivalent of 0.5 meq/L (1.4 dKH) of alkalinity and 10 ppm of calcium to the tank.

[Dhummel]

so is there a big difference in using lime then kalkwasser?

if i were to add kalk to the top off compared to lime?

i do have a kalk rx but went to the lime in the top off for easyer use.
( would i have better results in using this? )

[David Grigor]

Kalkwasser and Lime are the same thing. Kalkwasser is just the german word for it.

Kalkwasser Reactor is not as consistant. Output will vary depending on how much kalkwasser you add, how often you add it, and how much you freshwater you push through the reactor.

I also prefer the still resevoir method. Much more predictable and your more in control over the proportion.

[Dhummel]

Kalkwasser and Lime are the same thing. Kalkwasser is just the german word for it.

Kalkwasser Reactor is not as consistant. Output will vary depending on how much, how often you add fresh and how much you freshwater you push through the reactor.

I also prefer the still resevoir method. Much more predictable and your more in control over the proportion.

ok, i'll go with the lime in the top off container and adjust from there.
i was thing they were the same thing, just wasen't sure.
for now i have the co2 with very low bubble count and added to raise the calcium up to desired level. i'll check tomorrow to see what levels are at.

will the flow from the efluient raise/lower the calcium at all. what is a desired flow from there. i'm having to tweek mine a lot, due to having it Td off the return line.
would having a pump solve that problem>
thanks David

[David Grigor]

It can increase but only in the same ratio as the ALK. So if you increased CA by 20ppm using the CA reactor the alk would also have increase 1dkh. You can't adjust CA only using a reactor. That's why you will require the one time adjustment using a CA chloride based supplement.

Effluent rate has to consistant. If it is not, it will be tough to tune it correctly.

[Dhummel]

ok, i did that with the CA chloride based supplement from BRS.
i'll try to fix the flow into the rx with a different method then.
thank you.

[David Grigor]

Good ole Maxijet 400 or 600s worked fine for me for many years as a feed pump.

[Dhummel]

Good ole Maxijet 400 or 600s worked fine for me for many years as a feed pump.

i called Champion lighting and they said to use a MJ 900, i have the the MRC-CR1 reactor, i was thinking of having a valve on it just in case it was to much.
do you think that will work.

one other question,
i have a gate valve, should i have that before the reactor or after, i have it before right now.

[David Grigor]

Mine was a dual and a 400 or 600 was just fine.

But if you already have a 900 on hand that would be okay.

I always put the valve on the effluent output. You want all the pressure the MJ adds for consistancy.

US. Plastics have some real nice all plastic needle valves for the effluent. Just pick the one to match your tubing.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=usplastic&category%5Fname=15615&product%5Fid=15616

[Dhummel]

what do you think on the location of the gate valve ?
before or after the reactor?
right now i have it before.
the valve is exactly what i have.
i'll put it after the rx, you posted fast...

[David Grigor]

That is likely your problem then, you want the reactor to be pressurized.

Valve needs to be on the effluent end.

Probably if you move it your consistancy issues will go away.

[Dhummel]

one other question, i have the this programed into my AC3

If pH2 > 06.50 Then CO2 ON
If pH2 < 06.55 Then CO2 OFF

should i change that or leave it?

seems like the CO2 is on quite frequent.
maybe just me.

what do you run yours at?

i added the MJ 900 yesterday and looks like it's running at a consistant flow from before.

[David Grigor]

Sounds like you don't run/tune your reactor the way I would do it. I never used internal pH to control CO2. If the bubble count is set/tuned correctly then it shouldn't fluctuate and pretty much be always on. Controller would essential just be redundancy in case the needle valve fails.

Some people don't tune the bubble count. They leave it set higher and let the internal pH settings on the controller toggle it off/on.

If you tuning your reactor based on pH and your running too rich ( ie: tank Alk is too high ) then you should make changes to your controller setting to something slightly higher than 6.55. Slowing down the bubble count is the only way to reduce the on/off cycles.

[Dhummel]

in your statement:

If you tuning your reactor based on pH and your running too rich ( ie: tank Alk is too high ) then you should make changes to your controller setting to something slightly higher than 6.55. Slowing down the bubble count is the only way to reduce the on/off cycles.

i haven't been running it based on the tank ph, that has been some what stable at 8.25, it's the alk that concerned me at being higher then normal. but it seems that if i slow down the CO2 then the ph in the RX goes way up?
your saying i should not go by that then, correct. (is that ok for the ph to be high in the RX then) and just go by the alk in the tank
what would you say is a safe setting for the controller to be at if higher then 6.55

[David Grigor]

No No No when I say internal I mean inside the reactor. The 6.55 one.

What that pH should be in your reactor will be totally dependant on the media you use and the effluent rate. It will be trial and error to know what internal pH should be to achieve and maintain the alkalinity level in your tank.

If you running too rich though ( as your 15dkh alk suggests ) likely going to have to be something higher than your 6.55 setting today. What that will need to be is something you will have to figure out yourself. Start by stepping it up a tad maybe 6.58. But doing so and not fiddling with your bubble count will mean your on/off is going to be even more frequent that why I say you will need to adjust it as well.

I always tuned strickly by bubble count and not by internal pH. My bubble count once tuned would be the same 24/7 with no on/off cycles of the solenoid by the controller. To me, that's properly tuned. The controller would only be there for extreme circumstances where the needle valve goes bad and literally dumping CO2.

[Dhummel]

right i understand that with the ph in the reactor.

i'm using the large arm media in the reactor as well.

how long do you think before checking the alk again to see changes in that?

[David Grigor]

Likely verify 24 hours. But don't make any adjustments until you see it stops dropping with the current setting. For example if day one was 15 and day two was 14. Wait too see how far it drops before making the next adjustment.

[Dhummel]

so if i don't see any change in the alk going down would that then mean i would have to lower the bubble count?

i'll leave the efluient the same then.

[David Grigor]

Yep. Effluent rate doesn't really matter as long as it stays consistant. For some that means a steady drip other it can be a steady steam.

You don't want to be tinkering with both bubble count and effluent rate.

Yes lowering the bubble count is what is needed but if your controller is turning it off/on also based on internal pH then that makes adjusting even more difficult.

[Dhummel]

ok so todays results are :
calc: 390
alk: 14

would like to get the alk lower but had a lapse of memory on to get it lower,

lower the bubble or raise the bubble count.
thanks

[David Grigor]

Lower. High alk means your adding too much CO2.

However may want to wait a bit longer before making another adjustment. Not sure if with your currents setting the alk may still fall abit. Give it a little more time to make sure it won't drop some more on its own.

[Dhummel]

ok thanks David,
just wanted to make sure when i do make the adjustment, whats the safe range to get the alk into ?

[David Grigor]

With a reactor I'd personally target the 9-10dkh range. That way couple dkh +/- is still in the acceptable range. A sudden increase is much more stressful to sps/acros than a decrease.

[Dhummel]

thanks again...wow i have a ways to go down from 14
so does having a high alk cause acros from color and extending polyps ?

[David Grigor]

Mostly bleaching is the #1 side effect. Lack of polyp extension from corals that would normal demonstrate polyp extenstion is likely a sign of stress as well.

[Dhummel]

my reason asking on the polyp extension is some corals have good and some dont, my pink birds nest has been slowly turning white. i've tried using amino acid but haven't seen any real results? any thoughts on using that .
so by haveing a low alk would that bring that back.

[Dhummel]

tests from today:
11/14/09

calc: 410
alk : 15

ok i'm getting frusterated why the alk keep going up then down, the bubble count is almost a stop drip, as slow as i can get it.
what do i need to do to get it down

i top off with pickeling lime: is that raising it too much
should i change the setting on the controller:
what it's set at now:

If pH2 > 06.50 Then CO2 ON
If pH2 < 06.58 Then CO2 OFF

[David Grigor]

With Zero supplmentation it would drop about 1 dkh per day or less. Perhaps turn it off until dkh is back to 10. Turn it back on and make sure it doesn't rise. Is the controller turning it off/on still ? Did that at least settle down ?

[Dhummel]

With Zero supplmentation it would drop about 1 dkh per day or less. Perhaps turn it off until dkh is back to 10. Turn it back on and make sure it doesn't rise. Is the controller turning it off/on still ? Did that at least settle down ?

right now i have the CO2 off and the and the RX still running.
i'm almost sure that the controller is still turning it on/off.

someone said from RC that i had the numbers backwards, this is what i have it at now:
If pH > 06.58 Then CO2 ON
If pH < 06.50 Then CO2 OFF

before:
If pH2 > 06.50 Then CO2 ON
If pH2 < 06.58 Then CO2 OFF

would this be correct then
thanks David

[kvmn]

do you mean?
if ph2 > 6.58 then co2 ON
if ph2 < 6.50 then co2 OFF ??'

if so its look right to me
this will let co2 into your reactor when your ph2 at 6.58 and automatic turn it off at 6.50
you don't want ph2 any lower then 6.50 into reactor ,,,otherwise you in trouble

[kvmn]

you need to change it to PH2 not PH,,,,

[kvmn]

turn your bubble counter to zero,,,,,no bubble at all and wait a few day for alk droping off ,,and keep test untill you see it at 10dkh
also water change will drop down alk too,,,goodluck,,,
also stop top off with lime if you still using it

[Dhummel]

turn your bubble counter to zero,,,,,no bubble at all and wait a few day for alk droping off ,,and keep test untill you see it at 10dkh
also water change will drop down alk too,,,goodluck,,,
also stop top off with lime if you still using it

thanks for pointing out the PH2( thanks Corry)

right now CO2 is off and top off is off as well
so my question is when i get the alk down to 10 or so, do i go back to bubble count at very slow and top off with lime ??

where do i start at again ??

my other question is would the mag have anything to do with the alk and calc being that far off, i haven't tested mag recently??

[kvmn]

Mag help ballance your cal-alk easier,,,i alway keep it above 1380
if it too low ,,pump it up
i would start with lime first to see if that enough for your tank or not
then calx
but can be other way too

[Dhummel]

so since i turned off the top off whats the best way to keep the ph from dropping too low at night, keeping at 8.23 now. or should i not worry about that too much.

[David Grigor]

I'd continue the Kalk myself. Just turn the reactor off.

[Dhummel]

I'd continue the Kalk myself. Just turn the reactor off.

so leave the top off on and turn the cal RX totally off, couldn't i still leave the RX on with just flow through it, won't that keep the calcium stable leaving it on ?

i've been using 2 part to raise the calc now.

i have the CO2 totally off now.

[kvmn]

as long as co2 is off (no bubble) then its totally off,,,you need to keep water flow through reactor to keep it fresh in there
if you keep top off with kalk ,,it will take longer for alk to get low but all people do differently,,,it up to you

if you don't have run calx then your ph will be ok,,ph is not a big deal at all for me
,,my alway below 8.0 when i run calx
but when i turn calx OFF then my ph is alway above 8.0(no more kalk)

[Dhummel]

corry,
how are you doing your top off then just R/O ?

[kvmn]

just RO di
its easier for me to keep cal and alk on track

[Dhummel]

new test results:

Alk: 10.2
Calcium: 400

haven't tested for mag yet, ran out on test kit.

i think i'm good for the alk now,
do you think i should turn the CO2 back on at the slowest to see where the alk goes?

[kvmn]

for me i would turn it on a little bit and wait until ph2 at 6.7-6.8

[Dhummel]

i have the CO2 on at about 1 bubble per 3-4 seconds.
the ph2 is at 7.43
you think i should keep it at that count till it goes down, i just hate for the alk to climb back up by adding too much CO2 to the RX.
the efluient is at a steady drip. have not touched that in 2 weeks.

[Dhummel]

for me i would turn it on a little bit and wait until ph2 at 6.7-6.8

Corry, on your statement of getting it to 6.8, my controller wont turn off till i get to 6.5, what are your thoughts ?

[kvmn]

the setting on controller to turn it off at 6.5 is for safety reason so
1st bring your cal up to 450
2nd turn on your co2 counter little bit,,,not too much co2 so that your ph2 only go down to 6.7
3th test it after a day or so,,,write down on pc of paper of your test result ,,after 24hr test again,,to see if your cal and alk at\?

before doing all those thing above,,test your mag,,if its too low,,,it very hard to level your alk and cal,,,so test your mag and bring it up first,,

i think that what i would do unless somebody have more exp can chim in,,,goodluck

[Dhummel]

the only thing i have not done is test my mag, i dont have a kit yet, so not sure, would that have a big impact on the alk and calc levels?
i'll try the other sug though.
thanks Corry

[kvmn]

yes,, and i assume your mag is very low,,,have u ever add magnesium to your tank?

[Dhummel]

yes i have but not in a while, i have the BRS containers for that. i dont know what its at though.

[David Grigor]

Magnesium isn't going to be the issue here otherwise you wouldn't be able to maintain the levels your keeping. At the same time though, certainly need to test for it and make an adjustment.

So has your ALK still not dropped with CO2 totally turned off ?

[Dhummel]

yes David the alk did drop to 10.2 the other day with calcium at 400
i have the CO2 on right now at a very slow bubble count about 1 drip per 4 sec.

[Dhummel]

so here are my results from today:

calcium: 420
alk: 9.9
mag: 1410

quite surprised from the mag results, i thought it would be lot lower.
alk looks very good now, what do you think.

i was thinking on raising the mag to see if it might help with the hair algae problem, i have not tested for phosphates at all so i dont know.
any thoughts on that??

[kvmn]

run GFO
looking good

[Dhummel]

run GFO
looking good

i tried that before but didn't see ant results but the media was always turning into a hard rock, i had the gfo RX from BRS as well.

[kvmn]

keep it strong enough flow