Two-part question

[DwightKeenan]

I have been dosing two part for about 10 days now. FIrst I got all of hte parms where they should be and then started 35ml per day.

After 10 days, my calcium is perfect at 410, but my Alk has gone from 3.5 to 3.0.

Since I am supposed to dose equal aprts, how do I get the alk back to 3.5 and what am I doing wrong?

Thanks

[hypertech]

I've got a similar problem. Alk is low and every time I try to add the alk part, it all precipitates out.

[mtfatwork]

check your mag. You will not be able to keep the levels equal if your mag is low :)

[DwightKeenan]

When I started dosing, my Mg was right where I wanted it. My understading of two-part is that it should maintain the Mg levels until you use a gallon of each. I haven't checked my Mg yet, but if all three were in check when I started, why would ALK be done?

[gogregerson]

check your mag. You will not be able to keep the levels equal if your mag is low :)

You beat me to it. If you haven't been testing and dosing Magnesuim I would bet it pretty is low. Don't be supprised if it takes a lot to raise your levels.

[gogregerson]

What was you mag levels starting out?

[Goldpony75]

It took me a gallon of magnesium to go from 1110- 1450mg Just because your levels started in check doesnt mean your corals could of been depleted of mg and when it became available they used a lot of it up. if you are having a hard time keeping your levels stable with regular dosing then something is out of wack, These three elements are all tied together and rely on each other as well do the corals.

[gogregerson]

I like to dose my mag dailly with my calcuim and alkilinity. If I wait till the end of the week or so I find things get out of wack.

[DwightKeenan]

MG was 1t 1400 when I started. It did take a lot to get everything up to the starting level that I wante of

mg: 1400
ca: 420
alk: 3.5

Now they are at

mg:1260
ca: 415
alk: 3.0

So are you saying I should be doing more than just two part? I have tons of seachem additives that I used to use for alk, mg and calcium, but I was hoping dosing would work.

I can always increase my dosing, but I need to get everyhting back in check again, right?

[DwightKeenan]

I like to dose my mag dailly with my calcuim and alkilinity. If I wait till the end of the week or so I find things get out of wack.

How much do you dose? and are you using the two part stuff?

[hypertech]

My mag was 1200 and I got it up to 1400 now. Is 3.5 a good target for Alk?

My Ca is 405, Alk 2.8 (up from 2.6).

[gogregerson]

Yup, I use two part. Don't forget though two part is actually three parts. I dose two cups Calcuim, two cups Alkilinity and 1/2 cup Magnesuim daily but I have a very high coral load in my 150gal. You need to test almost daily to find out what your system needs to maintain your levels.

[David Grigor]

Also, keep in mind if your manually dosing, you may not be as precise. More importantly though, when you mix your 2 parts up, you could very well be off just from your measuring. Mine are never 100% equal parts. I do have to compensate a little on my dosing times.

My calcium always over time creeps up above the ALK. I just stop dosing ?CA for a few days and start it back up if too out of whack.


With magnesium, you can do however you like. I generally just make sure my newly mixed saltwater is up around 1350-1400ppm and don't worry about the show tank parameters.

[hypertech]

I did notice that reef crystals is a little low on magnesium. I may just buy IO next time if I'm going to have to adjust the mix up water.

I am dosing manually and I am probably not precise. My kit was premeasured but I may not have measured the one gallon of water exactly.

Alk has been giving me trouble. When I first started, it got overdone when I went out of town and was 6 when I got back. Then it went down to 2.6 and not I am trying to slowly get it up to 3.5-4.

My problem is that the alk part precipitates out. Why would it do that? My Ca level is OK and so is my Mg.

I've been taking the alk additive and mixing it inot a cup of tank water and then adding that. It seems to be working better but still makes a big white cloud whenever I add it.

[DwightKeenan]

Also, keep in mind if your manually dosing, you may not be as precise. More importantly though, when you mix your 2 parts up, you could very well be off just from your measuring. Mine are never 100% equal parts. I do have to compensate a little on my dosing times.

My calcium always over time creeps up above the ALK. I just stop dosing ?CA for a few days and start it back up if too out of whack.


With magnesium, you can do however you like. I generally just make sure my newly mixed saltwater is up around 1350-1400ppm and don't worry about the show tank parameters.


I will check it daily and get my two part pumps hooked up today so I can be more precise.

[mattb]

I did notice that reef crystals is a little low on magnesium. I may just buy IO next time if I'm going to have to adjust the mix up water.

I am dosing manually and I am probably not precise. My kit was premeasured but I may not have measured the one gallon of water exactly.

Alk has been giving me trouble. When I first started, it got overdone when I went out of town and was 6 when I got back. Then it went down to 2.6 and not I am trying to slowly get it up to 3.5-4.

My problem is that the alk part precipitates out. Why would it do that? My Ca level is OK and so is my Mg.

I've been taking the alk additive and mixing it inot a cup of tank water and then adding that. It seems to be working better but still makes a big white cloud whenever I add it.

Are you adding both at the same time? Also, if you are raising alk in a small system you could get some precipitation. On one system, I'm using the dual doser from Ryan, the disadvantage with this is increased potential for precipitation. There's nothing wrong with keeping alk levels near NSW, ~7dKH/2.5meq/l or there about...

IO won't help you in the Mg levels either, it's low.

[hypertech]

No, I add one part, wait 15-20 minutes and add the other part. I also rinse the graduated cylinder between parts.

It doesn't seem to matter which I add first, the alk always makes a cloud.

[David Grigor]

Alk will always cloud when adding. It's just a temporary precipitation and will go back into the solution as the local PH goes back down. Just add to the tank in a high flow area and you will be fine. Waiting 15 minutes is overkill, just adding to a high flow area and waiting until the cloud is gone is fine when dosing manually.

I use two seperate measuring cups for my ALK and CA marked with a sharpy so I don't have to bother rinsing etc.

IO and ReefCrystals both need supplementation of Mg.

[Adam G]

I add 2 part every day, and suppliment additional calcium via Kent Marine Turbo Calcium, and additional Alk via Kent Marine Reef Builder which is an Alk builder. I also add Mg to keep me at 1350ppm.

I found 2 part alone would not maintain Calcium and Alk values. I am shooting for 450ppm calcium and an alk of 10-11 dkh.

I keep thinking it would just be cheaper to go with a kalk reactor and a calcium reactor. But for now, I am getting the levels that I want with light to moderate coral loading.

[gogregerson]

I add 2 part every day, and suppliment additional calcium via Kent Marine Turbo Calcium, and additional Alk via Kent Marine Reef Builder which is an Alk builder. I also add Mg to keep me at 1350ppm.

I found 2 part alone would not maintain Calcium and Alk values. I am shooting for 450ppm calcium and an alk of 10-11 dkh.

I keep thinking it would just be cheaper to go with a kalk reactor and a calcium reactor. But for now, I am getting the levels that I want with light to moderate coral loading.


If your dosing right and enough, two part should be able to maintain your levels no matter what your consumtion rate is.

[David Grigor]

That doesn't make sense. What do you think turbo calcium is........ calcium chloride. What do you think Reef Builder is.......primarily sodium bicarbonate.

So 2 part and what your supplments are essentially the same thing. So upping your 2 part daily dosages is all you really need to do if your current dosing is not keeping up.

[gogregerson]

Two part will almost always work by it's self if your dosing enough. When your consumption rate gets high enough it may not be pratical to have to add large amounts of two part daily so you'll want to switch to a reactor.

[David Grigor]

Still even when you get into the several hundred milliliters of each per day it is still quite manageable and heck of alot cheaper to get a couple dosing pumps than a reactor and co2 equipment.

[gogregerson]

Very true. I've got a reactor sitting in my basement collecting dust because I find it so much easier to dose two part.

[sea monkey]

I have been dosing two part for about 10 days now. FIrst I got all of hte parms where they should be and then started 35ml per day.

After 10 days, my calcium is perfect at 410, but my Alk has gone from 3.5 to 3.0.

Since I am supposed to dose equal aprts, how do I get the alk back to 3.5 and what am I doing wrong?

Thanks

There are a variety of reasons why it might not be in perfect balance. this article might help
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

The the wrong material or amounts could have been mixed in one of the jugs . IE too much calcium in the calcium portion or sodium carbonate rather than bicarbonate. It could also be poured into an area with little or no flow so it created and isolated area where the alk/ph and threw the roof.

the solution to this problem can be as simple as adding a few ML to how much alk you dose every day : )

[sea monkey]

Alk will always cloud when adding. It's just a temporary precipitation and will go back into the solution as the local PH goes back down. Just add to the tank in a high flow area and you will be fine. Waiting 15 minutes is overkill, just adding to a high flow area and waiting until the cloud is gone is fine when dosing manually.

I use two seperate measuring cups for my ALK and CA marked with a sharpy so I don't have to bother rinsing etc.



David is right : )

I drip it in with a dosing pump but when i make occasional adjustments I like to pour it right into the intake of a high flow powerhead.

[sea monkey]

I found 2 part alone would not maintain Calcium and Alk values. I am shooting for 450ppm calcium and an alk of 10-11 dkh.


this is impossible . all you need to do is add more : )

I personally maintain 500ppm calcium and a 10 DKH

[mattb]

this is impossible . all you need to do is add more : )

I personally maintain 500ppm calcium and a 10 DKH

Yeah, I'm up there as well... btw, how much are those dual dosing pumps supposed to pump per minute Ryan? And it's 2 cups of the sodium ash (the stuff that cooked sodium bicarbonate is supposed to be after baked) that I got from you and the calcium chloride, I thought it was 2 cups of each per gallon...

[sea monkey]

how much are those dual dosing pumps supposed to pump per minute Ryan?

I forget , we stopped selling them a while ago. best to measure it on your own anyways , its super easy.

[mattb]

I know :(, one channel seems to pump more than the other....

[sea monkey]

And it's 2 cups of the sodium ash (the stuff that cooked sodium bicarbonate is supposed to be after baked) that I got from you and the calcium chloride, I thought it was 2 cups of each per gallon...

that's right with this type of soda ash and anhydrous calcium .

the amounts are different if you use flake calcium , baking soda and baked baking soda. people often don't pay attention or don't measure the right material properly.

there are other things that would change it as well , like leaving the container of material open and allowing it to absorb moisture which would add to the volume and weight.

like i said though . if you find it slightly off it can often be fixed but just using slightly more alk or cal every day.

[sea monkey]

I know :(, one channel seems to pump more than the other....

thats why we stopped selling them. the inside diamiter of the tube isn't absolutly perfect so one tube will dose more than the other . it happened significantly to about 10% of them so we stopped selling them.

You are welcome to return it if you want, sadly the other options are much more costly. The easy fix is the stick the faster hose in the alk because alk fluctuates more. once the alk jug is empty just pour in the little bit of calcium solution you have left in the other jug. You could also just add a bit less water to the calcium jug and make the solution more potent.

[mattb]

It's not a big deal really, and based upon the price, I'm totally fine with it :) Thanks Ryan!

[Adam G]

I realize that turbo calcium is the same as the calcium portion of the 2 part, and that the reef builder is the same as the buffer of the 2 part. I just find a variety of dosing techniques works for me. If my calcium is a little low I dump in some turbo calcium. This way I can dose approx. the same amount of 2 part.

How are you guys buying your 2 part? I have been getting the gallon concentrate from DFS for about $30. Is there a better way to purchase it? I could go through several gallons a month of each if that is all I dosed with.

[stuckey_t]

Very true. I've got a reactor sitting in my basement collecting dust because I find it so much easier to dose two part.

I mix up 5 gallon batches of each at a time and so far my tank takes 3-4 months to burn through it all. I will soon be buying the washed soda from ryan so mixing it up is no big deal instead of baking it. Maybe if I start mixing up 10 gallons of each at a time I'll go back to thinking about a reacotr:)

[gogregerson]

I realize that turbo calcium is the same as the calcium portion of the 2 part, and that the reef builder is the same as the buffer of the 2 part. I just find a variety of dosing techniques works for me. If my calcium is a little low I dump in some turbo calcium. This way I can dose approx. the same amount of 2 part.

How are you guys buying your 2 part? I have been getting the gallon concentrate from DFS for about $30. Is there a better way to purchase it? I could go through several gallons a month of each if that is all I dosed with.

Your doing it the very expensive way! Go to www.twopartsolution.com, you can buy every thing you need to mix your own two part for pennies on the dollar compared to store bought two part.

[sea monkey]

I've got a similar problem. Alk is low and every time I try to add the alk part, it all precipitates out.


Just thought I’d note that it is normal for the alk portion to form a white cloud when added, this is because of the alk portions high PH. However it quickly dissolves back into the water once it escapes from the localized high PH. The higher the flow the faster this will happen.

If it was precipitating out in the form of calcium carbonate it would not dissolve back into the water and you would have troubles raising alk. However it it would be using a equal amount of calcium to form the calcium carbonate and you would also notice that the calcium is equally hard to raise. The main two reasons why this would happen is because it was poured in really fast to a low flow area or the magnesium is really low. People often overlook the importance of magnesium , it is the presence of the magnesium that allows us to keep such high levels of cal/alk.

[Zibba]

I recently switched to using Recipe 1. Before I was using Recipe 2 w/ kalk, but it was too much work. With Recipe 2, the alk portion would never precipitate out of solution, but with the new recipe 1 - I'm having the same issues as others have posted. I have been slowing adding it to a very high flow area, but still I'm seeing an instant precipitate form (it dissolves back into solution quickly though). I realize that this really isn't necessarily a bad thing, but just wanted to post my observations as well.

FWIW - I baked the sodium bicarbonate rather than using "soda ash" (I realize it's the same thing after baking it).

[sea monkey]

With Recipe 2, the alk portion would never precipitate out of solution, but with the new recipe 1 - I'm having the same issues as others have posted. I have been slowing adding it to a very high flow area, but still I'm seeing an instant precipitate form (it dissolves back into solution quickly though). I realize that this really isn't necessarily a bad thing, but just wanted to post my observations as well.



this is because in recipe two you use baking soda which has a very slight lowering effect on PH . With recipe one you use soda ash which Will significantly raise your PH and no matter how slow you pour it in by hand you are going to create a localized area of very high PH at the point where the liquid enters the tank. Soon as the water mixes with the rest of the tank water the localized PH will rapidly fall and the cloud disperses.

[Zibba]

this is because in recipe two you use baking soda which has a very slight lowering effect on PH . With recipe one you use soda ash which Will significantly raise your PH and no matter how slow you pour it in by hand you are going to create a localized area of very high PH at the point where the liquid enters the tank. Soon as the water mixes with the rest of the tank water the localized PH will rapidly fall and the cloud disperses.


Okay so, assuming that I'm pouring into a high flow area (powerhead intake). How quickly can I add - let's say 50-100 ml - without harming anything?

[Adam G]

Thanks for the info on twopartsolution.com gogregerson. I have picked up everything I need and am mixing my own 2 part.

Zibba,

I have found that after I put about 7ounces of each part of the 2 part my PH goes from 8.15 to 8.45 initially, then drops to about 8.35 after about 15-20 minutes. It then takes about four hours to drop back down to 8.15 again. I dump it in a 30 gallon sump and the ph is measured in the 155 gallon display with a probe.

If I add more than 7 ounces of each the PH will rise even higher, and I find that is too much at once, so 7 ounces seems to be the sweet spot for my system. I usually add the alkalinity solution first, then wait 5 minutes and add the calcium solution. I do this 2 to 3 times per day and my levels have been 10dkh and 440ppm.

My next purchase will be dosing pumps so they can put in the two part nice and slow in the middle of the night and save me the hassle of putting it in 3 times a day.

[Zibba]

Sounds like you have a much higher demand than I do. Thanks for the response...I have been adding 2.5 oz of each in the morning and my levels have stayed consistent.

A dosing pump would really be great. But I as long as my dosing regimen isn't too demanding, I will hold off on that purchase.

[gogregerson]

Adam G, I'm glad to hear your getting things figured out. I'm sure your corals will love you for it. Speaking of which let's see some pics of these calcium consumers of yours!

[Adam G]

Yeah, I guess I must have a pretty high load. I just read up on recommended dosages and it appears that 1ml per gallon is what is recommended for a heavily loaded tank. I did the conversion and with me adding 14 ounces a day, that is about 440ml. My total gallons with refugium and sump is about 260 gallons. That means I am adding 1.7ml per gallon per day. Wow, I am going to have to look into this. I know I am loosing quite a bit with the 40 gallon per week water changes, so I am sure that accounts for some. My magnesium is 1350ppm, so that shouldn’t be an issue. I wonder if some of the solution isn’t precipitating out. Maybe if I wait longer between the addition of the parts? Any suggestions?

[Zibba]

I raise the levels of the new saltwater for water changes. That could really help - especially at 40 gallon/week.

[gogregerson]

40 gallons a week! That's 60% a month! That sounds like a lot of work and a lot of salt ($). I'm proud of myself those few months that I manage to do 20%. Do you have that large of a bio-load that you find it necessary to do water changes that often?

[Adam G]

40 gallons is 15 percent of my total volume a week. I look at it this way: 40 gallons costs me about $10 per week in salt and $5 per week in RO/DI media. Plus, I pick up my trace elements this way. I siphon out 15 gallons from the display, and then just open a valve that drains out another 25 gallons from the sump. Then I turn on another pump that pumps the 40 gallons back into the sump. This all takes about ½ hour. This and a 75 gallon refugium full of Cheoto keeps my phosphates and nitrates at zero. I see it as a low cost way of keeping nutrients, unwanted heavy metals, and other pollutants out of my tank. The main reason I started this routine is because almost every awesome tank of the month on Reef Central seems to be maintained this way. If you read through the last 24 months worth of Tank of the Months, you will find most of them do a 10 to 15 percent water change weekly. Do you guys think this is overkill?
I have 4 medium sized SPS, a couple of medium LPS, some softies, and 8 small to medium fish. At this point, so the tank is maybe half stocked. I plan on slowly adding some SPS over the next year and maybe 2 more fish. All coral are growing like mad and I have very little algae of any kind. What does grow, the hemits keep to a minimal level.

[gogregerson]

Fair enough. It sounds like you got it figured out. What do you run for a skimmer on you tank?

[Zibba]

Seems like it's working for you...I wouldn't change anything if I were you. I change 15 gallons every 7-10 days. My total water volume is about 85-90 gallons though.

[Adam G]

After reading my post I realized that when I asked if you guys think this is overkill it sounded like I was being sarcastic because I just posted some evidence to the contrary.

I really meant "Do you guys think this is overkill?" Maybe 15 percent a week is too much. I am open to suggestions and opinions!

[David Grigor]

Honestly when it comes to water changes there is no such thing as overkill as long as your not causing any additional stress by not matching temp, etc.

As long as you have a routine down that doesn't make it a hardship with your time, and fits the budget I say the more the merrier.

[storrisch]

agree....when I was breeding fish we were doing 75% weekly changes on all the tanks.