nitrate spike...

[queenbee]

hello,i purchased bio chem zorb put it into my canister about a week ago.today i noticed my mushrooms not looking good so i tested the water and noticed my nitates are way to high.i thought this stuff would help,?my nitates weren't very high to begin with.
i am thinking of getting a bigger canister,what would you guy recommend?i have a 55 gallon tank with a 304 fluval on it{and a protien skimmer}.i just have fish some inverts and a couple mushrooms.

[tico mike]

cannister filters are only effective if you clean them regularly. They can become a nutrient trap if not maintained. They are ok for carbon, but long term don't help a reef tank IMO. If you've got a really good skimmer you can get rid of the filter. I would make sure you are using RO/DI water with good filters and do some good sized water changes to lower the nitrates. Make sure you are vacuuming out all the detritus when you change the water and make sure you have good flow and arent' overstocked.:)

[queenbee]

yeah i slack on water changes,i also use tap water:eek2: please don't shoot me.i also have about 3 inches of sand in there,i usually just set the syphon in there and take water out and don't touch the sand.

[tico mike]

yeah i slack on water changes,i also use tap water:eek2: please don't shoot me.i also have about 3 inches of sand in there,i usually just set the syphon in there and take water out and don't touch the sand.

Well, it looks like you already know why your nitrates are high.:jester:

For success, you'll have to improve your habits...But it sounds like you know what you're doing, even if you're not doing it.:doh:

[queenbee]

i've looked into that,using an aqua-clear filter.this acrylic tank is weird there may not be enough space for it to hang on.we had to cut part of it off to get the protien skimmer on there. thanks for the help :)

[queenbee]

i have about 60lbs of live rock,10 turbo snails and 8 blue leg hermits.the tank will be a year old in november.i really think that bio-chem stuff made it spike,isn't that wierd.well i'm going to throw it away.

[mtfatwork]

Any chance you could add Refugium and put stuff in there like Chaeto and Live Rock & Live Sand that would help a lot with nitrate problems. The Refugium would help a lot better then adding thing to the water hopping it will work.





Jon, that is some excellent advice, way to contribute! :)

[wes]

I'd second the move away from the canister filter and towards a 'fuge. It can even be really helpful to grow some purposeful macro algae in the display, if you don't mind it getting a bit messy sometimes. I used tap water for 6 months or so when I started and the problems I had were (mostly) unrelated. :-) do check the water straight from the tap, and make sure you let it airate for at least 24 hours before and after adding salt. I also used to add a bit of amquel to help quell the nasties I couldn't test for. Other than that, check your feeding regimine. I try to only add things I can check for and spell... i.e. CaCl2 or NaCO3 :-)

[David Grigor]

Like already mentioned the only way the bio-chem could cause it is because it was a safe haven for bacteria to process the dom in your tank before your other filtration skimmer can pull it out. Same reasons why you don't want bio-balls or other biological filtration in your setup except for the rock and sand.

In order to reduce and maintain low nitrate levels the two easiest ways are:

1. Provide a low oxygen zone such as a deep sand bed for denitrification to take place.
2. Sufficient amount of macro algae to consume and regularly pull out macro algae as a form of export.

A few other examples which you need to research thoroughly and extreme caution implementing would be things like a sulfur reactor, sugar or vodka dosing.

Water changes is not a very effective way to lower or maintain low nitrate levels. Even more so in your case using tap water that has high levels of nitrate your actually making it worse by doing a water change. You pretty much need to either buy a ro/di unit to make your own filtered water or buy and cart it back it forth ( which gets very old very quickly ). By continuing to use conditioned tap water you will always have challenges and quite honestly will never be a successful reefkeeper. Just marginal results at best IMHO.

[queenbee]

the opening into the tank is 3 1/2 inches from the side,i don't think i can cut the acrylic not with the tank running{i had to cut it to get the protien skimmer on}.i'll have to run to petsmart and look at the aqua-clear and see if it will fit on.really,don't use a canister filter.

[David Grigor]

Your totally kinding yourself if you honestly believe there are no nitrates, phosphates, silicates, iron in your tap water.

Biochem itself cannot cause your nitrate spike. Leaving it in for a long period of time to allow bacteria that are very efficient of processing dissolved organic material in your water to nitrates BEFORE you skimmer and other exports can get rid of it is the only explanation. Which is the same reason why you don't want any trickle filter, bioballs, ceramic filtration etc typically found in canister filter either.

[wes]

at my last place, I had no detectable nitrates in the tap, and just BARELY noticable phosphates. I had problems from time to time; I managed it by doing tiny water changes every other day so I wouldn't ever dump a huge amount in at once. I wouldn't do a reef like that ever again, but I'd consider doing it to a FOWLR.

I disagree about water changes not lowering nitrates. How high are they? EPA regulations make sure tap is never over 10 ppm nitrates, and getting close to that is rare. If you have sky high nitrates a monster water change would certainly drop them down quickly, but you'd want to be careful to try to match every other parameter (mainly pH, SG, temp) of your tank to avoid shock. I would certainly look into bringing home some RO until you get it under control.


yes, really don't use a canister filter, save for occassional carbon use. I guess it could be a glorified powerhead if you really want it to be.

[mattb]

The thing about water changes is that while they can help with NO3 if they are huge ones, but it's not treating the root cause..

10% water changes, 10ppm NO3
10.0 ppm, 9ppm, 8.1ppm, 7.29 ppm, 6.56 ppm, 5.91ppm, 5.34ppm, 4.78ppm, 4.3ppm, 3.87 ppm, 3.48ppm, 3.14ppm, 2.82ppm, 2.53ppm, 2.29ppm, 2.06 ppm, 1.85ppm, 1.67 ppm, 1.5 ppm, 1.35 ppm, 1.21ppm, 1.09ppm, .985 ppm...
This is also assuming that there are no further NO3 accumulating in your system, which most likely isn't the case.... They need to be big water changes like 30%

[wes]

I'd do 25% changes everyday 'till they're in check. Treat the root of the cause at the same time. Eliminating the root will help, but bringing down the accumulated nitrates would take a while with macro or the like.

[queenbee]

i am just surprised the bio-chem didn't work within a week.also nothing will hang on the back of this tank with out cutting it,so i think my only option is a canister.i bought a API reef master test kit and here are my readings phosphate-1.0,calcium-80 =340,nitrate-80,carbonate hardness-i don't know i had to add 28 drops for it to turn yellow...the chart only goes up to 12 drops.i think i need alot of help.this is pretty much a fish only tank.

[David Grigor]

Do you use any PH buffers, they really screw up your water chemistry and make your alkalinity go through the roof.

With nitrate that high sounds like you your nitrates were issue long before ever trying chemi-pure stuff. They just don't get that high in just 1 weeks time.

I'm not a fish only person, Havre is the better person to ask but I'd think long term that can cause stress with fish when getting that high. I'd imagine your having some algaei issues as well.

Not for sure where your going with not enough room to hang on. For a refugium of any decent size to work you would want to incorporate a sump not hangon.

With adequate amounts of LR again, cannisters shouldn't be needed and like mentioned many times before is converting to nitrate too effeciently before skimmer has a chance to skim out the gunk. Best to let the skimmer and LR do all the work and gradually phase out any media in your cannister over a several week period then take it offline.

[wes]

nitrates that high require immediate action. that's a ton of phosphate, too. usually it should be undectable as algaes grow quick and use it up when it's there. I'd also guess you're testing general hardness, not KH. overall your system and husbandry techniques need a major overhaul. did you test for ammonia and nitrites?

[queenbee]

my algae was pretty bad but i added this phosphate remover and the snails and a :rolleyes: lawnmower blenny now it's alright.there are zero nitrites,the ammonia i didn't test for.

[queenbee]

could i just put some Chaeto into the tank?if i cannot do a fuge should i get a better canister?what should i put into it,carbon?

[queenbee]

please deal with my stupidity :rolleyes: .i'm going to do major water changes,get more live rock.sound good?

[David Grigor]

You can put Chaeto in the tank. But if you have any tangs, angel or other algae eating fish it won't last long.

The idea is to get rid of the cannister, not get a bigger one.

Let the skimmer do the export and the LR do the biological filtration.

Carbon is fine to run if you wish but you don't want to just leave it in there best to just run carbon for a few days at a time. Let in there too long and bacteria will make camp in there and start taking over your biological filtration again which is not the objective because you want your LR to be doing that work.

[tico mike]

my algae was pretty bad but i added this phosphate remover and the snails and a :rolleyes: lawnmower blenny now it's alright.there are zero nitrites,the ammonia i didn't test for.

Once your tank is cycled, nitrites will generally not be detectable. Relax. Your tank won't explode. You need to use Ro DI water. You need to ixnay the cannister filter. You need to read up on general husbandry. You need to attend a TCMAS meeting so you can figure this stuff out. Nothing good happens fast.

[queenbee]

i have a crapy seaclone skimmer:( i know it gets worse.right now i have sponges in the canister,and bio-max and carbon.i am affraid to stop using the canister.

[David Grigor]

Take the sponge out right away ( or thoroughly clean/rinse it at least weekly ). To be safe, take out about 25% of the bio-max at a time over the coarse of a few weeks. Keep the carbon if you like but be sure to change it often so it doesn't turn into boilogical filtration. As you slowly remove the biological filtration the bacteria in your LR and stuff should start to increase to compensate. Once all your biomax is out of the cannister you can turn it off. Perhaps occasionally use it to run carbon but I wouldn't run carbon 24/7 unless your willing to change it out regularly. If you cannister is providing addition flow in your tank, you may want to add a powerhead in the tank to keep the same amount of flow.

I think we all pretty much agree your skimmer is borderline worthless. Should be upgraded. Probably also need to seriously look into revamping your whole setup as well so you can add a sump. Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to make real progress and some rework is going to be involved.

[queenbee]

thanks alot for all the help.about the skimmer what would you recommend?right now i can not do a sump.

[David Grigor]

Choices are pretty limited without a sump. Tunze 9010 or 9005 in the tank would be a real good upgrade. Sometimes, remora hang ons go on here used pretty cheap. I'm not fond of them but certainly an upgrade. Once you get a sump configured your options for skimmers increase dramatcially.

[queenbee]

thanks for the reply,might have to head out to world of fish and check some out.i can spend $300,so hopefully thats enough.

[tico mike]

Don't go to WOF. Post a "Want to buy" ad on this forum. You have plenty to spend and should be able to get something good for that amount.

[Crazyminniaston]

Stop right there. :cop: your better off going to something fishy then world of fish something fishy is more salt water stuff then fresh water stuff. And not so rush rush and that helps if you got? Or 2. Just little FYI and something fishy is just down the road to. So it’s up to you but hope you pick right

[tico mike]

Also for $300 you could order something online from Premium Aquatics. Heck PM Dirk (he's in Red Wing) and he could bring something to the speaker event for you. He should have something that would work for you at half the price.

[queenbee]

wow thanks guys.

[Crazyminniaston]

on premiumaquatics Tunze DOC Protein Skimmer 9005.00 <--------- is $255.00

here the link for ya http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=T9005.00&Category_Code=TUNZESKIM

and here the link on the 9010
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=T9010.00&Category_Code=TUNZESKIM


you could go with a CPR Bakpak something fishy has them on hand.But some ppl like them some ppl hate them

[queenbee]

how about this skimmer-aquac remora pro protein skimmer with mag drive 3 or
Aqua Medic TurboFlotor 1000 Multi SL Protein Skimmer

[johnzillmer]

queenbee, stop for a minute and reread all the posts in this thread. You started by wondering whether your chemical filtrant possibly spiked your 'trates, and by the end of the discussion you are prepared to drop $300 to improve a problem (high 'trates and 'phates) that apparently wasn't bothering you much for a long time.

Also, you'd be best not to 'run off to SF prepared to drop your cash', nor 'run off to WoF prepared to drop your cash' nor give your cash to the first online merchant who's having a sale. Shop around. Ask questions. Find out what other people are doing (which you are doing by asking questions here, of course, and you are getting really excellent advice, but keep in mind you are talking to people who tend to have $$$$$$ systems, relative to the masses). Neither you nor the US government is going to solve any problem simply by throwing money at it.

Also note that mushrooms in a high-nutrient, probably low-light system (which I'm assuming yours is, being less than a full-blown reef) are going to react negatively after you add a chemical filtrant that steals their dissolved organic food. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but your livestock will react to changes in the system (wait til you add a skimmer -- more 'shroom food competition!), and you need to allow for that.

[queenbee]

you are right.i am looking at a couple skimmers online.do plan to upgrade in the future,i have a 75g and a 125 plus a 55g sump.i still have alot to learn before that happens.at first i was planning on just live rock and fish system,then i got the shrooms.with all the great replies i have a good idea idea of what i need to do.iam taking blame for the nitrates totally and i am not proud of it.thanks for all the help:) .

[David Grigor]

If your planning a larger system, 9010 would be a good choice very versatile skimmer ( can be run in tank now and in sump later ) and sized appropriately for up to 125g as well. So you wouldn't have to repurchase a skimmer later on and would be a big help now. This is about the only skimmer that will work for you now without a sump and later on as well. Pretty much any other choice you would have repurchase a skimmer later on.

[queenbee]

cool thanks for the help.

[David Grigor]

how about this skimmer-aquac remora pro protein skimmer with mag drive 3 or
Aqua Medic TurboFlotor 1000 Multi SL Protein Skimmer


These would all be decent if you can find one used for a good deal. I wouldn't buy a new one. Neither would work for a 125g and would have to upgrade again later.

[queenbee]

orderd my nes skimmer yesterday i got tunze,this weekend more live rock.thanks for all the help.

[David Grigor]

Forgot to warn you, if you go with a 9010 you also want to get the Magnet Holder 6080.50 which runs about $36. It does come with some brackets you can try to use, but very confusing and difficult to get setup that way especially if you have a tank with a lip on it. Magnet makes it a no brainer and worth every penny.

[queenbee]

thanks for all the help,my tunze rocks.

[David Grigor]

So did you muck through trying to use the brackets or did you get the magnet ?

[queenbee]

we used the brackets,my dad is a little worried that the srews are metal.i am really pleased with the results.