View Full Version : bacteria driven system options
I want to implement a bacteria system into my sps tank. I am not sure what route to take though. Should I go with bio pellets or should I do the Zeovit system? I wouldn't do the whole zeo system, just the zeolit media in the reactor with zeobac zeostart and zeofood. Does anyone in the club use a zeo system? I am leaning towards a bio pellet reactor because I can be lazy sometimes and I hear if you don't keep up with zeo, it isn't effective. Opinions?
And vodka dosing just seems like there is to much guess work involved.
Neil, I am using BRS biopellet setup and I am very happy with it so far. I started 3-4 weeks ago and I appear to have much less algae and the water seems clearer. I have been using zeobak to seed the pellets and dosing for the first 8 weeks every 3 days.
Only issue I have had was my skimmer went nuts the other day and made a mess. I have heard this is normal.
liono
01-09-2011, 05:49 PM
I did the biopellet route for the last 4 months. At first system was great and stable. Lower nitrates and phos. Then suddenly I noticed a rise in hair algae. My skimmer also overflowed continuosly. I now discontinued bios and returned to manual vodka dosing. System looks better with the manual vodka compared to bios in my opinion. Remember every system is different.
Fragtastic Reef
01-09-2011, 06:08 PM
I have read alot of mixed reviews on the bio-pellets, but have no personal experience with it. I dont dose anything in my tank and have no problems with algae or colors. How large of a tank do you have that you are considering this on?
75 display with 60 sump. The main goal that I am trying to achieve is getting rid of the pastel colors on my sps. Its not my BC 29 on my avatar if that was what you were thinking.
hypertech
01-09-2011, 07:10 PM
I'm thinking about brs biopellets on my 6 mo old mixed reef. I have never done a water change on it and I don't really have plans to start. So I'm considering it as an aid to keep my tank successful despite my lazy reefkeeping ways.
I have never done a water change on it and I don't really have plans to start.
:gay1: at least your honest
And also I have seen zeo being described as a ultra low nutrient system, and bio pellets referred to as a bacteria system, and people were using the terms like they were different. Isn't zeo fundamentally the same as bio pellets, just a more complex version?
mattb
01-09-2011, 07:58 PM
And also I have seen zeo being described as a ultra low nutrient system, and bio pellets referred to as a bacteria system, and people were using the terms like they were different. Isn't zeo fundamentally the same as bio pellets, just a more complex version?
No offense, but if you don't know the answer, I wouldn't recommend you use any probiotic system....
IMHO, the better of the system would be ZEO, for the simple reason is that you are potentially overdosing organic carbon. This much easier with biopellets. The result is potentially greater disease as many malevolent forms of bacteria are chemoheterotrophes. The second is that skimmers will not take out the "overdosed" organic carbon ( relevant for both the systems and the biopellets).
The other major benefit of the systems is that you are dosing specific strains of bacteria, and this periodic inoculation helps to keep these species present. With biopellets, this is not the case, ultimately the bacteria species that are propagated are those already found in the system. While there isn't a true threat of a mono culture, there are the threads of a simply a few species being dominant. This is often cited as a problem with mature tank syndrome. Could biopellets facilitate this? Potentially, definitely more possible than with a system that is receiving regular species inoculation.
Too many people run these systems, a community reef doesn't need then, unless you are a high end SPS reefer, it's a waste. Zoas, softies and lps will benefit from higher than normal no3. As will tridacnid clams...
Doesnt all carbon dosing do this?? It is my understanding that when using biopellets it is good too dose bacteria (mb7, zeobak etc) initially and some say even after it is established. But I am new.....
No offense, but if you don't know the answer, I wouldn't recommend you use any probiotic system....
IMHO, the better of the system would be ZEO, for the simple reason is that you are potentially overdosing organic carbon. This much easier with biopellets. The result is potentially greater disease as many malevolent forms of bacteria are chemoheterotrophes. The second is that skimmers will not take out the "overdosed" organic carbon ( relevant for both the systems and the biopellets).
The other major benefit of the systems is that you are dosing specific strains of bacteria, and this periodic inoculation helps to keep these species present. With biopellets, this is not the case, ultimately the bacteria species that are propagated are those already found in the system. While there isn't a true threat of a mono culture, there are the threads of a simply a few species being dominant. This is often cited as a problem with mature tank syndrome. Could biopellets facilitate this? Potentially, definitely more possible than with a system that is receiving regular species inoculation.
Too many people run these systems, a community reef doesn't need then, unless you are a high end SPS reefer, it's a waste. Zoas, softies and lps will benefit from higher than normal no3. As will tridacnid clams...
No offense, but if you don't know the answer, I wouldn't recommend you use any probiotic system....
IMHO, the better of the system would be ZEO, for the simple reason is that you are potentially overdosing organic carbon. This much easier with biopellets. The result is potentially greater disease as many malevolent forms of bacteria are chemoheterotrophes. The second is that skimmers will not take out the "overdosed" organic carbon ( relevant for both the systems and the biopellets).
The other major benefit of the systems is that you are dosing specific strains of bacteria, and this periodic inoculation helps to keep these species present. With biopellets, this is not the case, ultimately the bacteria species that are propagated are those already found in the system. While there isn't a true threat of a mono culture, there are the threads of a simply a few species being dominant. This is often cited as a problem with mature tank syndrome. Could biopellets facilitate this? Potentially, definitely more possible than with a system that is receiving regular species inoculation.
Too many people run these systems, a community reef doesn't need then, unless you are a high end SPS reefer, it's a waste. Zoas, softies and lps will benefit from higher than normal no3. As will tridacnid clams...
No offense taken, I am not thoroughly researched, yet. My tank is however full sps (I consider it high end, mostly ORA) and I am heavily stocked with fish (7 in a 75g, 3 of the fish over 6"). For this reason and my pastel colored sps is the reason I would want to start one of these systems. With my large skimmer, gfo reactor, and frequent water changes my po4 sit at non-detectable and no3 levels are < 5. If I go with bio pellets, I will still dose microbacter 7 or zeobac and Fritz seems to have good success with prodibio. I understand why zeo is considered ULNS but why are pellets not also considered ULNS? Isn't the point of pellets to keep nutrients at non existent levels? I was also under the assumption that using non-soluble pellets, you could not overdose carbon (correct me if I'm wrong here). I really enjoy the set it and forget it aspect. I have also read your article on vodka and very much appreciate your input here (kinda was hoping for it :beerchug:).
One more thing, if someone does go with zeo, would you suggest staying away from spur for this reason? http://www.tcmas.org/forums/showpost.php?p=361175&postcount=51
I saw you mention that stopping zeo will not harm anything, but even after having been dosed spur?
Just thought I should mention my lighting is 2 250w phoenix bulbs with 2 54w t5s blue+ and figi. This lighting setup should give good colors, so I canceled out that variable.
Jeffie
01-09-2011, 10:05 PM
Not trying to be rude at all.... What are you looking to do with a bacteria driven system? That is the main question. What are you trying to achieve? With answers to those questions. People might be able to help you a bit more.
Jeffie
01-09-2011, 10:14 PM
Sorry, I read that after I posted what I did. Do you have a FTS? What are your water perms, Lighting, photoperiod, etc. Usually light corals don't need even more of a ULNS that bacteria systems can give.
Sorry, I read that after I posted what I did. Do you have a FTS? What are your water perms, Lighting, photoperiod, etc. Usually light corals don't need even more of a ULNS that bacteria systems can give.
All testing is with salifert
temp-76 with a AC/JR
SG 1.25
no2-not detectable
no3-5
po4-not detectable
ph-8.1 daytime and 7.9 nighttime
CA-420
MG-1400
dkh-8.6
20% WC @ 2 weeks
8 hours with 2 250w phoenixes
12 hours with 2 54w t5s
swc 200 extreme skimmer
MP40 on one side and 2 1400gph korralias on a switch on the other
1.5 cups of gfo switched monthly
approx 125g total water volume 75g display
fuge with cheato and calupera
I dose BRS 2 part with their dosing pumps.
7 fish, I feed approx 1 cube/day, and small piece of a sheet of algae twice a week.
Oh and I use Reef Crystals
SPS grow well, but I have pastel colors and colors fade when put into the tank. I have over 30 types, mostly aquacultured (approx 15 oras, and LE pieces, lokani 20k $500 efflo strawberry, stuff that should have color)
What are light corals, photosynthetic?
It was suggested from one of our gurus that I may have to much light. I am going to slowly decrease my photoperiod and see what this does for colors before going to a carbon source.
Fragtastic Reef
01-09-2011, 11:25 PM
It does seem that your lighting period is a little long. You may want to raise your PH up a little also. SPS usually like a higher PH. 8.2-8.3
I am trying to raise my ph. winter sucks. I have a exchanger and ph still drops in winter. It will dip to about 7.9 just before the alk gets dosed, then it raises back up. 8.1 is the norm that it sits at. I also run reverse lighting on my fuge. But I have dull colors in the summer also when I am at 8.2-8.3.
Oh and I forgot to add that I feed cyclopeez twice a week and just started feeding oyster feast at night.
PaulTushaus
01-10-2011, 11:44 AM
on my 40 br I run 2x39w t5's 12 hours and 2x150w halides 6 hours if the water is clean colors are nice, I am using DE 14,000k reef optics bulbs. also I do a 50% w/c once a month and see much more benefit from this as opposed to a smaller weekly or every other week W/C
RaysReef
01-10-2011, 12:25 PM
How high do u have your MH at Paul? I think that 6 hr window for daylight is best as well. Especially when you have 2 under a 40B. Did u ever run it 8 hrs and see if you saw a difference?
CaptainGreg
01-10-2011, 01:02 PM
I want to implement a bacteria system into my sps tank. I am not sure what route to take though. Should I go with bio pellets or should I do the Zeovit system? I wouldn't do the whole zeo system, just the zeolit media in the reactor with zeobac zeostart and zeofood. Does anyone in the club use a zeo system? I am leaning towards a bio pellet reactor because I can be lazy sometimes and I hear if you don't keep up with zeo, it isn't effective. Opinions?
I use the tribase carbon with RN_bacteria system. I use it for two years now and it work. Low nutrient system. I ran accross other bio system on the net a while back check them out. Lot of option...
How long did you set up your tank? For what I know, SPS corals will not color up in a new set up tank doesn't matter what you do or added. All my SPSs almost colorless for almost 3 mos after I added to my tank which I set up back in April last year. All the sudden, they're all color up nicely now. Nothing added or changed in my system. And I'm still consider my tank is a newly set up:beerchug:.
PaulTushaus
01-10-2011, 05:03 PM
How high do u have your MH at Paul? I think that 6 hr window for daylight is best as well. Especially when you have 2 under a 40B. Did u ever run it 8 hrs and see if you saw a difference?
yeah as I remember I tried runing it at 8 and stuff started going downhill.. blows my mind how people are running 250w on nano-cubes...
RaysReef
01-10-2011, 05:07 PM
yeah as I remember I tried runing it at 8 and stuff started going downhill.. blows my mind how people are running 250w on nano-cubes...
That's what I figured...yea I don't know how people can run high wattage on smaller tanks without having issues.
good to know, thanks a bunch!
David Grigor
01-10-2011, 05:38 PM
Neil, I highly suspect that bio pellets will not solve what your wanting to solve pastel colors. If anything lower nutrients may increase pastel without adding back nutrients/supplements.
Remind exactly what your lighting setup is ? If your running T5s the bulb combinations your using can have as much effect on pastel colors as water quality. Less of an issue with higher K rated MHs.
2 250w phoenixes 14k (although they are bluer than most 20k bulbs)
2 54w t5s, Blue+ in front and fiji purple in back
David Grigor
01-10-2011, 05:55 PM
For whatever reasons, IME: Fiji purple can/will increase pastel gradually overtime so I'd pull that and see if notice improvements in a few weeks. I had to swap mine back out after about 8 months becuase LPS and SPS where just getting way too pastel. Already started seeing a turnaround after just a couple of weeks but will take longer to shift back to what I want.
Otherwise if not from lighting, may need to look into additional food supplements as pastels can sometime be from too low of nutrient levels. Reducing water quality even lower may end up making more pastel than it would the opposite without adding things back to the water column in a controlled fashion.
thanks, I'll try turning off the fiji in conjunction with a smaller photoperiod. I really don't see my tank as low on fish poop.
What do you mean by pastel color? You mean dull? Also David what are bulbs that help long term with increasing color etc. What should he replace the Fiji with?
Neil, I highly suspect that bio pellets will not solve what your wanting to solve pastel colors. If anything lower nutrients may increase pastel without adding back nutrients/supplements.
Remind exactly what your lighting setup is ? If your running T5s the bulb combinations your using can have as much effect on pastel colors as water quality. Less of an issue with higher K rated MHs.
In my thread were I was asking about having to add nutrients or amino when using biopellets you said it shouldn't be an issue as it isn't an ultra low nutrient system like carbon dosing. I am wondering if I misunderstood you? If so what is suggested to be added back?
Yea Odie, pastel as in the colors are not as vibrant as compared to other peoples tanks. Colors dull out when they are put into my tank. Maybe I'll try ATI true actinic? I don't wanna run 2 blue+, they are really a strong blue.
David Grigor
01-11-2011, 10:06 AM
In my thread were I was asking about having to add nutrients or amino when using biopellets you said it shouldn't be an issue as it isn't an ultra low nutrient system like carbon dosing. I am wondering if I misunderstood you? If so what is suggested to be added back?
No what I'm saying is pastel colors if not from the lighting, can be from ultra low nutrients and may have to add nutrients back. I was not addressing the bio pellets, I was addressing his issue with pastel colors. If getting pastel colors from low nutrients pellets may make worse.
David Grigor
01-11-2011, 10:08 AM
Yea Odie, pastel as in the colors are not as vibrant as compared to other peoples tanks. Colors dull out when they are put into my tank. Maybe I'll try ATI true actinic? I don't wanna run 2 blue+, they are really a strong blue.
Neil how many hours a day were you running the fiji purple ? Was it on longer than your MH schedule ?
dougers31
01-11-2011, 10:44 AM
Maybe try Radiums instead of Phoenix???
Timmy77
01-11-2011, 11:13 AM
Have you consided trying tropic marin reef actif?
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Tropic Marin REEF ACTIF
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Tropic Marin® REEF ACTIF performs a unique dual function as an adsorber and bacterial nutrient in saltwater aquariums. In doing this it assumes a central function as the link between inorganic nutrients and the biological population in the saltwater aquarium. REEF ACTIF is suspended in the aquarium water where it bonds with both nutrients and water contaminants making them available as nutrients to bacteria and other animals that feed on dissolved organic material in the saltwater.
These bonded nutrients make REEF ACTIF even more valuable as a source of beneficial bacterial nutrition thus strongly promoting the reduction of water contaminants. REEF ACTIF consists of long-chain molecules which can only be digested by specific organisms. This reduction is always gradual and insures that there is never any dangerous oxygen loss in the aquarium as can occur with many other types of bacterial nutrients.
Contents:
100 ml
Art.No. 24702
500 ml
Art.No. 24704
Among the organisms that can utilize REEF ACTIF are the symbiotic bacteria which live in corals, sponges, tubeworms and many other filter feeding animals.
The reduction in nutrients by REEF ACTIF operates so efficiently that corals and reef clams exhibit significantly improved vitality and display their brightest colours.
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A Natural Source of Nutrients for Corals and Other Filter Feeding Animals
Recently marine scientists have become increasingly aware of reef snow’s central function as a vital source of nutrients on natural coral reefs. Dissolving Tropic Marin® PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW in RO/DI water forms a thick solution that can be combined with nutrient supplements and foods such as Tropic Marin® LIPOVIT and PRO-CORAL ZOOTON and PHYTON to mimic this natural nutrient source.
When added to the reef aquarium, PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW together with the food and supplements form highly nutritious flakes similar to those of natural reef snow. By varying the concentration of the PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW solutions, the size of the flakes can be adjusted to the specific filter feeding animals maintained in the aquarium. The portion of PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW and the nutrients it contains which falls to the aquarium floor is only slowly decomposed by bacteria, thus further providing additional enriching nutrients.
Contents
100 ml
Art.Nr. 24722
In this way PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW also helps in reef aquaria as a food source for a wide variety of bottom dwellers. It is also a delicacy for worms, crustaceans, sea cucumbers, sea urchins, right up to gudgeons and other detritus feeding fish. The stirred up particles can be utilized again by the filter feeding animals as a valuable food source.
Tip: Many fish happily devour larger flakes of PRO-CORAL REEF SNOW. As a prebiotic food, it promotes the natural intestinal flora and thus also helps prevent the spread of unwanted bacteria.
REEFSTOCK
01-11-2011, 11:15 AM
All testing is with salifert
temp-76 with a AC/JR
SG 1.25
no2-not detectable
no3-5
po4-not detectable
ph-8.1 daytime and 7.9 nighttime
CA-420
MG-1400
dkh-8.6
20% WC @ 2 weeks
8 hours with 2 250w phoenixes
12 hours with 2 54w t5s
swc 200 extreme skimmer
MP40 on one side and 2 1400gph korralias on a switch on the other
1.5 cups of gfo switched monthly
approx 125g total water volume 75g display
fuge with cheato and calupera
I dose BRS 2 part with their dosing pumps.
7 fish, I feed approx 1 cube/day, and small piece of a sheet of algae twice a week.
Oh and I use Reef Crystals
SPS grow well, but I have pastel colors and colors fade when put into the tank. I have over 30 types, mostly aquacultured (approx 15 oras, and LE pieces, lokani 20k $500 efflo strawberry, stuff that should have color)
What are light corals, photosynthetic?
What kind of fish do you have? You seem to be way underfeeding, especially if you are using GFO.
Also, you could back off on the MH to 3-5 hours.
REEFSTOCK
01-11-2011, 11:30 AM
I want to implement a bacteria system into my sps tank. I am not sure what route to take though. Should I go with bio pellets or should I do the Zeovit system? I wouldn't do the whole zeo system, just the zeolit media in the reactor with zeobac zeostart and zeofood. Does anyone in the club use a zeo system? I am leaning towards a bio pellet reactor because I can be lazy sometimes and I hear if you don't keep up with zeo, it isn't effective. Opinions?
If you are interested in a bacteria system, and you don't keep up with things... and let me phrase this semantically correct :)...
From what I have read, the safest system would be Prodibio then followed by pellets, simply because you don't have to daily manage them. From the probiotics article in Coral Mag, the Prodibio system you do not have to be as diligent on ALK levels. I am not sure that remains true with pellets... either way I figure ALK is not too bad since I only have to tweak it once a week, since I have dosing pumps.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/probiotics-demystified
Stoneyj33
01-11-2011, 11:32 AM
I ran 1 fiji t5 for 2 years over a 75 and never had an issue with pastels. There are certain sps corals I wouldn't own unless I had a fiji bulb in place (green jeweled drag for example) turns completly green no brown base under a fiji bulb.
In my sps tanks I noticed the more frequently my parameters change, no matter what the parameter is, it will fade sps tanks. The more swings the more it will fade. I started doing water changes less frequently and lowered the ammout of water changed), increased the volume of my sump(more volume equaled lower swings if all habits remained constant), and monitered all major parameters. I also stopped adding as many "liquid fertelizers" as possible.
David Grigor
01-11-2011, 01:40 PM
I ran 2 fiji purples on an 8 bulb system no more than 3 hours per day. Everything got lighter over a 6-8 month period gradually worse and worse. Everything got more pastel SPS, LPS except for leathers. Replaced them with the bulbs I used prior and color started shifting back to what I was used to within just a couple of weeks. I've had this effect in two systems. The other was 3 bulb, 1 fiji + 2 blues.
So certainly something to look into especially if he has been running that bulb for long hours per day as a dawn/dusk to the MH. I'd certainly either pull it or reduce the hours of that bulb BEFORE doing anything drastic to the water parameters or switching methodologies....if the only complaint is pastel colors.
Every tank is different and certainly could be something else but that would be my first suspect and will be easy to isolate.
Thanks for that article Fritz, lotta good info there.
Oh and as far as feeding fish, I am not sure really how much a cube is, I buy flat packs, I feed what the fish can eat in a few minutes once a day, I probably estimated badly. I soak mysis in selcon also. Fish are all fatties, defiantly not starving. I also started feeding that oyster feast that you recommended, every night I put a small squirt in for the sps.
DG- I ran the t5s for 12 hours a day, and I ran the halides for 8 hours a day. I have since decreased this though to 6 hours for halides and 10 hours for just my blue+ now (fiji is offline now)
CaptainGreg
01-11-2011, 05:41 PM
Some posted last week about using some additive that got some sort of trace cooper and it make the coral color up. For got the name of the stuff.
mattb
01-12-2011, 04:35 PM
If you are interested in a bacteria system, and you don't keep up with things... and let me phrase this semantically correct :)...
From what I have read, the safest system would be Prodibio then followed by pellets, simply because you don't have to daily manage them. From the probiotics article in Coral Mag, the Prodibio system you do not have to be as diligent on ALK levels. I am not sure that remains true with pellets... either way I figure ALK is not too bad since I only have to tweak it once a week, since I have dosing pumps.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/probiotics-demystified
That article is a joke... funny how the guy only shows pictures of other peoples tanks....
mattb
01-12-2011, 04:43 PM
zeovit spur?
Yes, but it doesn't exactly color up your corals, it causes the coral to expell some of its zoox. If the coral is brown, it'll be lighter brown....
A couple of observations....
1) you mention you are keeping mostly ORA corals. You won't see any improvement in color with most aquacultured corals... they are used to being kept in more polluted water (than the reefs). If all you keep are ORA sps, any probiotic system is a waste of money/effort... The best bang for your buck with probiotic systems are maricultured and wild as they are used to being in super low nutrient environments...
2) You talk about adjusting pH, don't mess with pH, it'll do what it'll do, when you run a probiotic system, you want to have as stable as an alkalinity as possible. Ditch the refugia, unless you like all those cute pods and crap, it does limited nutrient reduction unless its close in size/surface area as your display.... Using macroalgae to reduce nutrients is worthless...
2) You talk about adjusting pH, don't mess with pH, it'll do what it'll do, when you run a probiotic system, you want to have as stable as an alkalinity as possible. Ditch the refugia, unless you like all those cute pods and crap, it does limited nutrient reduction unless its close in size/surface area as your display.... Using macroalgae to reduce nutrients is worthless...
Kinda ironic how you listed those two points together. My refugia keeps my ph stable. My ph used to swing a lot at night, but running a reverse lighting photoperiod on my fuge limits the swing to .1 or .2 when it used to swing about .6 to .8, and I also think that pods are cute :beerchug: The little amount of nutrient reduction that it does isn't hurting anything. Why ditch it if I already have it? Just wondering, do ph and alk swings kill the good bacteria, or is it just good reefkeeping advice that stability is key?
David Grigor
01-13-2011, 11:25 AM
Don't focus on pH swings. It's not the cause of your pastel issues.
If you switch to an ultra low methodoligy it won't matter becuase the macro algae will starve and die out anyways.
mattb
01-13-2011, 12:25 PM
Kinda ironic how you listed those two points together. My refugia keeps my ph stable. My ph used to swing a lot at night, but running a reverse lighting photoperiod on my fuge limits the swing to .1 or .2 when it used to swing about .6 to .8, and I also think that pods are cute :beerchug: The little amount of nutrient reduction that it does isn't hurting anything. Why ditch it if I already have it? Just wondering, do ph and alk swings kill the good bacteria, or is it just good reefkeeping advice that stability is key?
I just saw a couple of your posts... not on the board much any more.... Just some things that stuck out. Is it wrong to run a refugia, nope, its just that the benefits are way over stated of running one, in terms of nutrient reduction and pH stabilization...
I thought I should post an update. SPS is coloring up, slowly. There is definitely a difference. It must have been the long photoperiod and that Fiji bulb. Anyone have any actinic recommendations to pair with my t5 blue+ bulb?
mattb
02-26-2011, 03:01 PM
I thought I should post an update. SPS is coloring up, slowly. There is definitely a difference. It must have been the long photoperiod and that Fiji bulb. Anyone have any actinic recommendations to pair with my t5 blue+ bulb?
Why do you want to run an actinic with a B+? the UVL super actinic is nice.... Pick one, there are many to do so. You can really compare actinide as they are all slightly different spectral curves, and PAR doesn't matter as much of the actinic spectrum is outside the definition of PAR.
I did, I am running 2 blue+ now.
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