The Myth of Live Rock

[maxseeley]

Disclaimer: I am the supplier of Eco Rox, but I still feel like the things I am about to say are still objective.

The myth of live rock: live rock that is trans shipped from overseas to the U.S. is full of living organisms.

I am first going to talk a little bit about the process of getting live rock from some place like Fiji to Minnesota.

1.) Live rock is collected from various places and placed out of water for an extended period of time while enough quantity is collected. This means that it can be sitting on the beach for 1 to 2 days. Some suppliers mist the rock during this process, some don't.

2.) The rock is processed and here is where the shipping methods vary. One of the largest suppliers of live rock ships to the U.S. by boat other ship via air cargo.

By boat: live rock transported via this method takes over a month to get to Los Angeles. Most of the time it is subjected to very extreme temps. during this shipping. By the time this rock gets to LA, I think it is safe to say that it is all dead. Because this supplier brings in huge quantities of rock this way, it takes them a while to sell it. This means that it can be sitting waiting for distribution around the US for up to a month.

By plane: live rock that is transported via air cargo travels "stand by" to save on costs. This means that when the rock gets to the airport in Fiji it might sit for 3 to 4 days before leaving. Some rock is transported in planes that are pressurized and climate controlled, sometimes it is transported in planes that are not pressurized and climate controlled. If the rock is transported in planes that are not pressurized and climate controlled, this is in my opinion a death sentence for anything living on the rock. Usually, rock transported via this method is rock that is purchased more on demand and doesn't sit as long waiting for distribution - 2 to 7 days is how long it will sit waiting for distribution in LA.

Distribution to pet stores takes another day of transport.

This means that on average, live rock can be out of water a week to 2 months before it ends up at a pet store.

Now, the pet store orders in 400 lbs of "live" rock for curing. They place it into a large curing vessel with a huge protein skimmer and lots of flow. They perform daily water changes. They run carbon. THEY ARE STILL GOING TO GET A HUGE AMMONIA SPIKE. If there is anything still living on the rock at this point, most of it is killed by this ammonia spike. It seems like the things that make it through this process are the things you don't want - predatory crabs, mantis shrimp, ...

You are saying to yourself, this is BS, I bought live rock and a couple of months later it was covered in living organisms. Did you add any corals to your aquarium in this period of time? All corals are attached to a rock or reef plug that is usually covered in Coraline algae or other stuff and I would argue that this is the source of the majority of these "living organisms".

Not all live rock from pet stores is in this condition. A lot of time pet stores buy live rock from individuals. This provides a source for this organisms to populate other live rock that is in the holding vessel. Or if the pet store is on top of it, they order small amounts of "live rock" and don't wait for the live rock to completely run out. This reduces the shock and some live rock that has been in there a while helps process the organics from the new live rock and provides a source of living organisms. So it is possible to get good quality live rock from pet stores. The point I am trying to make is that the source of this life is not what we might think it is.

[jon_56048]

Thanks for the info. but whats with the smell if the rock is dead for so long?

[hypertech]

Its all the dead decaying crud thats on/in the rock.

[jon_56048]

But if it sit's for 2 week to month shouldnt it be dead dead. just asking because we have about 150-200 p of rock that I need to wash then cure it again and hoping since it been siting around for month's it wont smell like :barf:

[hypertech]

Are there any farms near your place? Does the manure pit stop smelling like manure just because its been sitting out for a couple weeks?

It might not, but be prepared ......

[hypertech]

I think there is a lot of truth to this. I've flipped a couple rocks re-arranging. They were stark white on the bottom. Within a couple weeks, I can't tell the difference anymore between the part that was white and the rest.

My understanding of the value of "live" rock was the bacteria in it, after being in this a while, I realize that part can be grown rather quickly. If I ever do a large tank, I'm going to go with dry stuff and small quantity of seed rock either from my tank now or purchased from another reefer.

I think places like TBS might be the exception but I'm not interested in that - too many bad hitchhikers and it looks like boulders to me.

I've often wondered if it could be profitable to "culture" LR locally. Take the dead rock at $2/lb dry, turn it into live rock over a couple months and sell it as live rock at $3/lb wet.

[jon_56048]

lol

So your tell me I have to tell the wife she can't set up her tank tell summer time.

[David Grigor]

It seems lots of things survive tampabay liverock ( of course most times it's the pests you don't want ) . Since off the FL coast I would assume it doesn't sit in transit near as long.

[sea monkey]

I have that tampabay live rock and it came filled with life but you have to pay for it to be shipped in water and pick it up at the airport . With shipping I think it cost me like $1,400 to get enough rock for my 90 gallon tank.

It looked absolutely astounding for about 6 months and then all the filter feeders died off. It left me with extremely heavy boulders that are so smooth it's hard to attach any corals . It also had like 20 mantis and 60 harry crabs that I spent a year trying to get rid of . Hindsight I think i would have just left them alone , they care kinda cool and i never saw them bother anything. I'm not horribly disappointed but there is no way I'd ever spend $1,400 on rock again.

[sea monkey]

Thanks for the info. but whats with the smell if the rock is dead for so long?

I haven't experienced it but I guess i wouldn't be surprised if whatever died left some tissue behind and when rehydrated stinks. Nothing a small bag of carbon wouldn't solve.
Unfortunately there are many things in our hobby that stink : )

[sea monkey]

Main reason I like the dead rock is it gives you total control over what is going in your tank. As long as you inspect the corals you add you should never have to deal with all the pests and odd algae people are always fighting.

Continually battling these things can be extremely frustrating and often cause people to quit or tare down a tank and start over.

[wes]

I'm curious about how all the crazy things that are in my tank got there, then... If I search around a bit, I can find sponges, turnicates, spaghetti worms (friggin' TONS of these guys), feather dusters and all sorts of other oddities over several months. It seems unlikely that they came from frag plugs. I did buy a nice chunk of LR from Mary, though. But still, those guys had to come from somewhere initially.

[Turf]

I used dead rock for the 1st time on (~6th tank setup) and liked it mainly because I could sit and set it up just like I wanted... currently doing the same for my 125 which means all the rock is on my living room floor like a big puzzle.

Wes... here is what i think about the critters. The ONLY thing I've added to my tank is frag plugs or itty bitty rocks w/corals on them and my tank is covered w/sponges and feather dusters and pods... and algae (you've all seen my video :biggrin:)
That being said I would NOT do 100% dead rock again if I can help it and have some from another tank/store to seed it.

[hypertech]

What ratio would you do if you had did it again? 90/10?

[wes]

somewhere out there has got to be someone running a FOWLR who can weigh in about the critters.

[Turf]

I'd think 90/10 is good. From what I hear that mix seems to work well.
Only downside to new guys is a guaranteed algae bloom.

[David Grigor]

I'm usually suggest newbies to not go more than 40% dead/base.

Using quality equipment such as skimmers and other filtration, and experienced with keeping nutrients down and CA/ALK levels up to promote coraline then you can go with a much higher % of base/dead. I would never recommend for someone without experience as will likely end up an algae mess with all the exposed area for hair algae to take hold.

[hypertech]

If I startup another tank, I'm taking the plunge. Worst case, I fail and wind up cooking the rock.

[Swanwillow]

see, I'd do it, but.. algae. I'm not too worried about hitchhikers, and I want to get corralline, which I've NEVER had in any other tank. I know, sounds strange, but for all the times I've bought live rock, I couldn't get the coralline to grow right. So thats why I was thinking 50/50. maybe less, like 75/25.

[thegrimreefer]

When I set up my first reef, it was before the collecting ban in FL. I spoke to the collector the morning he went out after my rock. Not aquacultured, actual broken pieces collected below the reef. The next afternoon, I was placing it in the tank. It was many months before I put any coral into that tank, and it was crawling with an incredible variety of critters.

I realize that's a far different situation than Max is describing, but it is the thing I miss most since re-entering the hobby lately. There's nowhere near the fauna I used to have, even in my 'fuge.

[RogersCG]

Wouldn't these same thoughts apply to the supposed live sand sold in pet stores and online throughout the country? And most any other supposed 'live' product that is packaged for this industry?

[sea monkey]

I always wonder what you should expect to be "live" in the prepackaged live sand. It sits in a warehouse then shipped via semi or train car (middle of winter - dead of summer) and then can sit months at room temp at a distribution point or LFS

[Swanwillow]

I never thought that 'live' sand WAS live... little too much to ask for.

But, then again, I like bare bottom tanks.

[Turf]

It's conceivable the something is alive. Think about it, there is bacteria and algae living under such insane conditions no one would believe it. That being said it's hard to say how beneficial it is and I vote no.

[sea monkey]

I don't think there is a way to stop nitrating bacteria from entering your tank. Guess i have always wondered if the wet "live" sand was really any better than the bags of dry sand.

[tico mike]

While I agree to a point with what Max is saying....I transhipped most of my rock directly here. I "cooked" it for a few months (although I snuck a luminarc reflector with a 400w 20k on it for a few hours a day, teehee), and this went directly into my tank. There was plenty of living organisms on the rock and plenty of pods around...After I did my aquascaping I added some more rock from a few people, but not til after I had the transhipped rock in there with a barebottom tank for long enough to see a lot of survivors. I think there is some pretty hardy stuff out there. Having said that, a huge majority does die off, but the inclination that it's basically dead is not true.

[mattb]

packaged live sand = sand, seawater, and bacteria (my guess there is some sort of encapsulation). IMHO, not worth it. Get some regular dry sand of your choice and dose some prodibio with it, cheaper live sand....

[maxseeley]

While I agree to a point with what Max is saying....I transhipped most of my rock directly here. I "cooked" it for a few months (although I snuck a luminarc reflector with a 400w 20k on it for a few hours a day, teehee), and this went directly into my tank. There was plenty of living organisms on the rock and plenty of pods around...After I did my aquascaping I added some more rock from a few people, but not til after I had the transhipped rock in there with a barebottom tank for long enough to see a lot of survivors. I think there is some pretty hardy stuff out there. Having said that, a huge majority does die off, but the inclination that it's basically dead is not true.


IMO - this is the exception, not the rule. I am not saying that there is always100% die off. But most of the time, there is a huge amount of die off and I think there are bettter more controlled methods for getting the benficial organisms that we want. You seem to have gotten your rock through a pretty direct method and this has it benefits.

For example, when we were doing the aquarium at Jun Bo we ordered in 300 lbs of live rock. We got the rock from a vendor that delivers rock from destination very promptly. When we received the rock in it was covered with different coralines and other organisms. We put the rock into a liverock curing vessel with a huge skimmer, lots of flow, and performed. Within three days the rock was almost totally devoid of anything living from the shock of curing. This is what got me thinking about doing and differently and looking at other sources of rock. Another thing that pushed me in this direction is that we used 400lbs of "dead" rock at Jun Bo. Within 6 months of setting up the aquarium, all rock was covered in Coraline and other stuff. Jun Bo was the first reef where we used a majority of dead rock and I was very happy with the results.

After this, we used dead rock as the bulk of our rock on reef installs.

Recently, we setup our first system using 100% dead rock. It is a 340 gallon reef (two 220 custom acrylic aquariums using the same remote filtration). The lights were turned on a couple of weeks ago. I will post pictures of the progress of this reef so that people can see. We did add a piece of live rock the size of a baseball from another system to seed the tank.

[tico mike]

I am not saying that there is always100% die off. But most of the time, there is a huge amount of die off and I think there are bettter more controlled methods for getting the benficial organisms that we want. You seem to have gotten your rock through a pretty direct method and this has it benefits.



It sounds like we agree. I agree that most of the stuff dies off.

[Therockguy24]

All the info is not fully true. Some of the rock is sent a barrels full of water by ship. It really just depends on who shipping it. Most of the "Brown" live rock you see in stores have been out of water. When I talked to mu uncle about this he said the way you can tell is look at the growing stuff on the rock. And dont think that if it has coraline alge on it it's good, look for sponges and mushrooms cause thats the stuff thats shipped right.

[Therockguy24]

Best stuff to buy is the carrib. rock. And like the earlier post never by rock from tampa........................

[tico mike]

Best stuff to buy is the carrib. rock. And like the earlier post never by rock from tampa........................


Care to expand on this statement? Based on exactly what? It certainly isn't more porous, nor has fewer pests, nor is cheaper. I'm interested to know why it's "best"...

[hypertech]

biting tongue

[morty]

Eek. Like I said in a different thread, I'd never use FL aquacultured rock again for lots of different reasons, no matter who it's from...

[maxseeley]

All the info is not fully true. Some of the rock is sent a barrels full of water by ship. It really just depends on who shipping it. Most of the "Brown" live rock you see in stores have been out of water. When I talked to mu uncle about this he said the way you can tell is look at the growing stuff on the rock. And dont think that if it has coraline alge on it it's good, look for sponges and mushrooms cause thats the stuff thats shipped right.

Shipping live rock in barrels of water via boat would be a sure fire way to kill it. The water would be so nasty and depleted of oxygen by the time it landed it would be a toxic soup. Plus, the reason it is shipped by boat is to save money. If you also had to ship water with the rock, I would assume this would eat up any cost savings. Who ships in barrels of water?

[sea monkey]

wouldn't the boat ride be like a month ?

[RaysReef]

with or without a compass?

[sea monkey]

I was told that shipping via boat from china took a month or so, can Fiji be any better? any way you look at it, an extremely long boat ride in a barrel with no oxygen transfer , no light, decaying tissue and probably no temperature control can't result in anything desirable being alive.

[maxseeley]

wouldn't the boat ride be like a month ?

Yes, the boat ride from Fiji is a month minimum.

[Therockguy24]

Carrib is out of the water the least, so less die off plus it's usually shipped to flordia. Most of the stuff from fiji ya is out for a long time. When I brought up the barrels i forgot to say it's the stuuf that comes from carrib. I recieved a picture from rock from fiji right out of the ocean and it was amazing how much stuff was on it, so when you see what we get it's kind of a let down!!!!!!!!!

[kpete4]

This topic rocks!

[mattb]

I think it's gotten a bit overzealous... I mean, let not forget that one of the first acros known to be kept in captivity came as a "hitchhiker" on a piece of live rock.... I've had porities, favia, mushrooms and other things come in on live rock...

[tico mike]

Carrib is out of the water the least, so less die off plus it's usually shipped to flordia. Most of the stuff from fiji ya is out for a long time. When I brought up the barrels i forgot to say it's the stuuf that comes from carrib. I recieved a picture from rock from fiji right out of the ocean and it was amazing how much stuff was on it, so when you see what we get it's kind of a let down!!!!!!!!!


Is this why it's "best"? Marshall Island is considered one of the best by far due to porosity. More size to weight ratio and shape variety means you don't need as much.

BTW, I've had zoas, shrooms, a favia and povona all survive transhipping. I was going to sell liverock 10 years ago and got a liscense. Shipped in many hundreds of pounds and had plenty of stuff survive. I'd take any cool pieces and put them in my two show tanks that were established and ended up with plenty of awesome stuff.

[tico mike]

I think it's gotten a bit overzealous... I mean, let not forget that one of the first acros known to be kept in captivity came as a "hitchhiker" on a piece of live rock.... I've had porities, favia, mushrooms and other things come in on live rock...


I guess I should have read to the end first. My post ended up as basically a double post.:gay1:

[Adam G]

Most of my live rock is cured Fiji. I have had it for about about 8-9 years. It started out in a 75 in 1998, and then in 2000 I purchased another 75 pounds when I switched to a 150. Over the years the rock has gotten better and better. The coraline is just thick, and there are lot's of feather dusters, sponges, and other critters all over it. That stuff has survived through tank transfers, sitting in buckets overnight while moving, you name it.

That being said, curing live rock sucks. Out of the 180 pounds of live rock I have today, I did order a 35 pound box of direct ship live rock at one point. I put it in a garbage can and spent who know's how much on salt and power for heat and circulation. I cured it for what seemed like forever, and when I added it to my tank I still got a major algae bloom.

I think the eco rock is a great idea, and if someone like the rock guy wants to go through all the trouble of properly curing live rock and selling it for $4 to $5 a pound, that is great as well.

The nice thing is, the stuff lasts forever. So invest in something good, and you will be set.

[tico mike]

I agree the eco rocks is the way to go overall. That would be the best way to build your aquascape without water. Use the rods and ties to make it stable and then seed with a few pieces as Max said. My only point is that stuff does survive, whether it's worth it, is up to the end user. Alot of it is like Christmas. I love getting the shipment and opening the boxes.

[Sizzlersonthebrain]

"the worms crawl in , the worms crawl out heck they even play..." lol


I had 60lbs. or fiji that I dried out and let sit fo rclose to a year, put it in water to cure and from no seeding got sponges and coraline among other things.

[Turf]

Just adding a note/question... everyone that has posted about having a number things live seem to imply alot has lived. On 100# of rock did you get 3 or 4 things to live or are we talking about 200?

Also, these stories of survival seem to come from 8-10yrs ago. Has shipping/collection practices changed since then? I'd bet they have.

The real question is... Has anyone in the last year or two gotten any significant life on their "live" rock that could out weight the cost given I saw the same level of success on "life" in 3mo with 100% dead rock and a few frag plugs.

Maybe I miss read an earlier post but I'm just trying to fill in the holes in the discussion.

[tico mike]

Just adding a note/question... everyone that has posted about having a number things live seem to imply alot has lived. On 100# of rock did you get 3 or 4 things to live or are we talking about 200?

Also, these stories of survival seem to come from 8-10yrs ago. Has shipping/collection practices changed since then? I'd bet they have.

The real question is... Has anyone in the last year or two gotten any significant life on their "live" rock that could out weight the cost given I saw the same level of success on "life" in 3mo with 100% dead rock and a few frag plugs.

Maybe I miss read an earlier post but I'm just trying to fill in the holes in the discussion.

My last transship was this summer. I believe I had millions of things survive. (I'm guessing since I didn't use a microscope.:gay1: )

[mattb]

I think in summary...

The collection of liverock kills off a lot of stuff, some stuff lives. There are alternatives for those who don't want to deal with curing.

[mattb]

My last transship was this summer. I believe I had millions of things survive. (I'm guessing since I didn't use a microscope.:gay1: )

Do you have an MI source :biggrin:

[irish02bk]

I recently bought some base rock and was going to add to my already established tank with 30 lbs of LR. I think i have started to see some algea outbreak on two rocks that i put in the tank. The rest i have in a bin with water circulating? Am i already screwd and going to get a big algear outbreak? Is there anything i can do to fix it? What caused the outbreak in the first part?



I'm usually suggest newbies to not go more than 40% dead/base.

Using quality equipment such as skimmers and other filtration, and experienced with keeping nutrients down and CA/ALK levels up to promote coraline then you can go with a much higher % of base/dead. I would never recommend for someone without experience as will likely end up an algae mess with all the exposed area for hair algae to take hold.

[Swanwillow]

Just adding a note/question... everyone that has posted about having a number things live seem to imply alot has lived. On 100# of rock did you get 3 or 4 things to live or are we talking about 200?


ohoh, something I can answer.. maybe we should make a poll/question and answer type thing :greenguy:

In 2005 I purchased a 45 lb box from a well known source. It wasn't the BEST, but it wasn't the WORST on the site.

I got a lot of rocks... and... well, there wasn't even a cycle when I cooked it. I tested all the ammonia, etc. What I'm saying is.. I got 45 lbs of.. a little bit of green coralline? Not even a bristle worm.
Thats why this time I was going to go with a little bit from Florida, to seed into some Eco Rox... going for MASSIVE amounts of live in a little amount, like, 25 lbs of LR to 75/100 eco

[John_Salmon]

Last year i did a 45/55 dead/live mix on my rock and was satisfied with it. I got 75lbs carib dry, 40 lbs figi drop shiped, and 50 lbs fully cured tonga from a local reefer. It did take a full year for everything to look "good" but the 50lbs fully cured tonga looks exceptional now!!!