Italy's coral food?

[IIOHAB]

Does any one remember the recipe from Mike's speech today. I can only remember sugar and HGH. If someone has a link to the reefcentral thread that would be great to.

We are allowed to post links to other sites right:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[spsick]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=971190

lot to read, paletta touched the subject at the event? damn I wish I could have gone!

[mtfatwork]

I am going to ride along on this one as well. I would like to try this method when the new tank is stocked. :)

[IIOHAB]

Yeh, I am thinking about trying it, but I have alot of reding to do first.

[BiochemRobyn]

Nam and I were thinking about trying this too- but we weren't sure where to get the chopped clams and other supplies. Then we started thinking that if someone in the club had extra time and could make a huge batch, other club members would probably be willing to pay for it. Anyone willing to try it out??? :idea:

[IIOHAB]

Well let me do some reading. I may be able to do just that, make a big batch, if people are interested.

[JnS]

I have a bunch (like 50 or so) of small ice cube trays for sale for who ever is making it....

[Sizzlersonthebrain]

sombody took vidio of today to copy right?

[mtfatwork]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=971190&perpage=25&pagenumber=13

this should help a bit, it is the first mention of the actual formula (there is supposed to be a list of the amino acids later, but this is a good starting point for reading)

[IIOHAB]

Mary, you just beat me to it. I just got to page 13 and was going to tell every one:tongue: :tongue: :tongue:

[rihanssu]

jeremy i will pay you for ALOT of that! i'll pay pretty good money for it too! i think that along with the ZEOVit will produce a very impressive tank

[IIOHAB]

So now what do I tell my doc.:biggthumpup: :biggthumpup:

[rihanssu]

So now what do I tell my doc.:biggthumpup: :biggthumpup:



that it was and accident and you only wanted to see what it tasted like....

[BiochemRobyn]

LOL- maybe GNC will give you a deal if you buy in bulk, either that or I think we could find a few street dealers who would give you a good deal :biggthumpup:

[mattb]

Those that use pappone, or a variant, have cautioned against using aminos from gnc as there are fillers use that have unknown effects....

[REEFSTOCK]

United noodle ~26 a block off Hiawatha and across the street is a seefood grocerie (and another one in Wayzeta). Good places for hunting down the goods.

[wes]

I'd be inerested in some if someone makes a big batch.

[Otolith]

The coral food doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary, except for the HGH, that is. Not sure why you couldn't just use this, and mix some other things such as Nori, cyclopeeze, golden pearls, etc. into it and use it for a fish and coral food. Throw a little cyclopeeze into the tank a good 1/2 hour before you feed this stuff to stimulate polyp extension, and you should be good to go.

[IIOHAB]

OK after reading all 40pages I have come to a few conclusions:
1. it seems that anly a few of the Italians are using HGH, most are using some type of amino acid supliment. Further cautin has been made to just trying GNC suppliments. Some of the comercially available aquarium suppliments have been recomended.

2. It must be fresh seafood!!!!!

3. I noticed a few people state that if using zeovit system not to add the sugar to the papone mix. This will lead to big problems because the zeovit already contains things to do the same thing!!

4. Do not over feed. Start slow, 1 feeding a week, and go from their.

[IIOHAB]

Alos DO NOT CHANGE the recipie!!!!!! The Italians get a little upset when you even mention this.,

[mtfatwork]

Alos DO NOT CHANGE the recipie!!!!!! The Italians get a little upset when you even mention this.,



:rotflmao: that is just a little bit of an understatement:rotflmao:

does it say for certain in there which amino acids or vitamins to suppliment? I have 10 pages left, I read thirty last night, and then had to go to bed because I had to work this morning.

[IIOHAB]

It does and it doesn't!!! The reefitalia artical just says that their are 191 amino acids in the HGH but does not get specific. Others on the thread broke it down to like 2-3 to suppliment. The problem is the fillers in the suppliments that you can buy at GNC. I think that the seechem or salifert AA boosters might be a safer way to go.

The other important thing was to feed the AA 1 hour before the lights go off then to feed the seafood mix.

[mtfatwork]

yeah I got that much, so just go with the commercial aa boosters for corals then.

[Redwinger]

Maybe Ryan could chime in on how he made his frozen reef chili. That stuff was the best food I have ever used and luckily still have a little left but am starting to get low.

[epidemic]

The reefitalia artical just says that their are 191 amino acids in the HGH but does not get specific.

Huh? There are what 24 amino acids? I unless there are a bunch of modified ones like hydroxyproline or what not

[JnS]

good luck getting HGH.....

[sea monkey]

OK after reading all 40pages I have come to a few conclusions:
1. it seems that anly a few of the Italians are using HGH, most are using some type of amino acid supliment. Further cautin has been made to just trying GNC suppliments. Some of the comercially available aquarium suppliments have been recomended.

2. It must be fresh seafood!!!!!

3. I noticed a few people state that if using zeovit system not to add the sugar to the papone mix. This will lead to big problems because the zeovit already contains things to do the same thing!!

4. Do not over feed. Start slow, 1 feeding a week, and go from their.

I haven't found the time to read this yet . I'm curious does this differ that much from "EB's famous coral food" http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176530

forgive my ignorance but any reason it has to be fresh ? I personally found frozen seafood the easiest to work with . the cheese grater attachment on a food processor works really well with frozen items. From talking to different seafood providers the word fresh has no real meaning other than perception of quality because much of the stuff is frozen and then thawed for display. while freezing it may certainly effect taste it is very possible that a frozen item has less bacteria or disease on it then fresh seafood because it was frozen immediately and stayed that way until it got to your house. The Fresh seafood you have no idea how long it has been thawed, what temps it has been allowed to sit at and for how long. Fresh seafood also has a much higher likelihood that it has been sprayed with preservatives like phosphate to maintain color and "freshness" . It is not required for the wholesaler to notify the store of the use of these preservatives or for the store to notify you. The meat guy at lunds told me if they tell you they know for sure that anything hasn't been sprayed they are full of it because there is no way for them to know that for sure. That said , when i was doing it I used coastal seafoods for the items I really wanted fresh.

[sea monkey]

Maybe Ryan could chime in on how he made his frozen reef chili. That stuff was the best food I have ever used and luckily still have a little left but am starting to get low.

it was pretty much just the link i posted above. The whole reason I originally sold it to the club members was i made a batch for myself and then realized i had a lifetime supply after it took me months to use one bag.

Only thing bad about it is it's not really cost effective to buy it all on your own because you use so little of it. One of the main costs is overnighting the selco and phyto from http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/. you will never want to use the tools again for anything other than this, the smell never dies .... that means don't use your wife's favorite blender,bowl or food processor : )

I also wouldn't recommend this to just anyone. You should have a understanding how how much to feed, it is easy to over feed something like this in relation to your tanks actual coral load, quality of skimmer and water change habits. I think EB said something like this when he was here "the best environment for your corals is massive import (prey/food) and export (quality skimmer, water changes, DSB)" If you don't have the ability to export because your skimmer sucks or don't have the time to do frequent water changes then you probably should skip as much of the import part as possible as well : )

[mattb]

IIOHAB, good summary. It's such a small amount of sugar, I doubt it'd cause any issues though.... they use sugar to help boost bacteria populations which use the O in NO3 for respiration, they also may use the 0 from PO4 in a similar fashion and use the P for other cellular processes.

Considering HGH is illegal, I doubt that many use it.

The reason, I imagine, is to use fresh seafoods is that cooking changes the nutritional value of the food. I would imagine that any phosphates that they spray on the fresh seafood is miniscule compared to the amount of phosphate in prepared foods.

I'm planning on picking some up today to make a batch. I don't think it's anything different than EB's formula....

I think another part of the "Itallian" method is most are running elevated, yet ballanced levels of Mg, Ca, and alk.

[sea monkey]

The reason, I imagine, is to use fresh seafoods is that cooking changes the nutritional value of the food. I would imagine that any phosphates that they spray on the fresh seafood is miniscule compared to the amount of phosphate in prepared foods.

I'm planning on picking some up today to make a batch. I don't think it's anything different than EB's formula....

I think another part of the "Itallian" method is most are running elevated, yet ballanced levels of Mg, Ca, and alk.

I guess i was debating fresh VS frozen , not cooked : )

The perseratives are sprayed on the seafood so they can stay thawed in transport and/or on display for day(s) and maintain freshness. Being frozen is its own preservative and wouldn't require additional additives. Shrimp is one of the main ones to look out for.

I also believe the commercial frozen products do have to state the preservatives they use "if any" on the package. The orential stores sell a nice bag of "mixed seafood" for like $3.

[sea monkey]

btw I would guess that EB's recipe is naturally extremely rich in a variety of amino acids . I have clue clue if they would be the same ones that suggest using.

[IIOHAB]

Yes, the elevated levels are very important. With out those they say it will not be as effective.

The reason they stated for not using the frozen seafood was preservatives, but it was also said that if all you can get is frozen it will still work. Just thaw and rinse alot.

[sea monkey]

Yes, the elevated levels are very important. With out those they say it will not be as effective.

The reason they stated for not using the frozen seafood was preservatives, but it was also said that if all you can get is frozen it will still work. Just thaw and rinse alot.

I would guess fresh "seafood" in Italy and in Minnesota are two drastically different things : )

[IIOHAB]

I agree!

[David Grigor]

If the recipe does call for Selco, I have a whole big bottle of the Selco and only use a small fraction of it for baby bangaiis. So if someone is going to make a big batch to split. The selco will be my contribution as it is probably one of the more expesnsive parts.


While I don't really know what others one this thread are using but I imagine combining the food with a sub-par skimmer is going to be dissasterous. You are going to need a pretty good oversized skimmer before trying it IMO......

[sea monkey]

I don't know how long it is good for but i have a large bottle of frozen phyto and a bag of fish eggs : )

[IIOHAB]

Actually their is no phyto or selcon in this food mix, but thanks for the offers.

[sea monkey]

can you list or link to the full recipe ?

thanks : )

[morty]

FWIW, bovine growth hormone (Posilac, by Monsanto) which is used by farmers to promote milk production and calf growth, will likely function identically to HGH in the Italian recipe. Not sure how much easier it is to get vs. HGH, but at least it is legal in the U.S. Also not sure how the "inert" components added to its formulation will work in a reef tank, but I'd guess they're safe.

(I worked on a study at the U of MN using injections of this stuff into tilapia.)

[IIOHAB]

Here you go. It only took me 13 pages to find it:bow: :bow: :bow:
Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it all—you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).

[sea monkey]

OK that is substantially different than EB's mush.

Also i believe that fresh oysters , mussels and clams are all live products . There is a big difference between alive and frozen , guess that answers my question : )

[IIOHAB]

So does any one know where to get live oysters, clams, and mussels in the TC area???

[sea monkey]

coastal seafoods . one in the ghetto and one in wayzata.

they supply many of the nicer restaurants in the twin cities. you may find equal quality somewhere but i doubt you will find much better.

[IIOHAB]

thanks :beerchug: :beerchug:

[sea monkey]

let us know how it works : )

[Sizzlersonthebrain]

ther is a costal in st paul on snelling verry nice and they know thier stuff they also have kobi beef..mmmmmmmm

[mattb]

I'd think the stuff from Byerlys is good too. Their fish is sushi grade. Though I'd ask about when their shipments come in....

[mtfatwork]

Hey Jeremy, I will split the cost with you if you wanna go halvsies on it. Let me know either way, cause if not I am going to start my search for the magic ingredients mid-week.

[Otolith]

You should probably be able to get all of it from coastal seafoods.

While you're there, pick up some of their tuna steaks. Cook them up rare with just a little mixture of butter, olive oil, salt, pepper, and lime or lemon juice, and they are delicious!!!!! One of these days I'll have to try the kobe beef. Hey, if your corals are going to eat well, shouldn't you too? :smile:

[sea monkey]

so the more i think about it this stuff is way different than EB's . I believe the idea of EB's is that the coral captures it like pray and consumes it.

this is blended so much that the corals (SPS) would have a hard time capturing anything that small. so they must be consuming the nutrients another way. This stuff supposed to provide nutrition to the coral directly or to the zoozanthellae ?

lots of people tried this with at least anecdotal success ?

guess I need to read the thread and answer these for myself maybe : )

on a side note i think it's kinda funny that peoples desire for their corals to grow faster would have them dosing human or cow growth hormones , LOL

[IIOHAB]

The theory behind the HGH is that once frozen it breaks down into amino acids that the corals use for growing skeleton structure.

[mattb]

I don't think it's any different than any food, it is a prey item for sps to consume... It's for the coral not the zoox. Though the zoox can absorb NO3 from the water. I think that's the key, feed the corals, without polluting the water and your colorization and growth should improve/increase.

[sea monkey]

I don't think it's any different than any food, it is a prey item for sps to consume... It's for the coral not the zoox. Though the zoox can absorb NO3 from the water. I think that's the key, feed the corals, without polluting the water and your colorization and growth should improve/increase.

after 15 minutes in the blender the particle size is going to be extremely small , kinda like a liquefied mush. while not fact , it's commonly believed that SPS doesn't capture pray that small .

[IIOHAB]

I made some tonight and it is most definatly mush!! I will post pics tommorrow.

[David Grigor]

Sounds like to consensus is to just use commercially available Amino Acids.

So do we plan to use both the Salifert and the Seachem or just one or the other ?

[IIOHAB]

I ordered the salifert. It should be here this week and then we will see what happens

[Redwinger]

So how is the feeding going? Any observations as to improvements or downfalls in coral growth/color? Would you recommend it?

[IIOHAB]

When I brought all my levels up to what was recommended I began having a rtn problem. I did bring them up slowlly, over a couple of weeks, buy did not start feeding the food untill my ca, and mg werere up at the recommended levels. I started feeeding the stuff but my corals had already started growing like weeds just from the elevated levels of ca and mg. I did end up letting my ca and mg drop down to a more sane level and the rtn seemed to heal itself. All I can say is start feeding the stuff and then raise your levels. I am still feeding the food but without the elevated levels. I know the food is not what makes the extreme growth it is the elevated mg and ca. That said I think you need the food to help the tissue keep up with the skeletal growth. that would be the reson to start feeding and then raise the levels.