DIY ozone reactor anyone?

[TekCat]

Anyone had done DIY ozone reactor? I am trying to stay away from injecting ozone to protein skimmer.

[Redwinger]

Why not just run ozone through the skimmer? What is holding you back from that?:smile:

[TekCat]

According to Boomer and Randy at reefcentral's chemistry forum, protein skimmers are not very efficient vesels for ozone to make efficient use of it. Basically the water runs too fast through the skimmer, so much of ozone gets wasted.
The recommendation a pressurized reactor (btw, coralife reactor sucks), or make a tube Randy's 'reactor'. Unfortunatelly I don't have enough space in my living room for 100 ft of 3/4" tubing for tube reactor, so pressurized ractor seems like the way to go.

--edit--

so, I am researching possibility of making a reactor. ;)

[Carman34l]

ozone, hmm.. get back to you on that,

[mtfatwork]

I cant wait to get my ozonizer set up. good luck with the reactor, and post a build thread so we can see how to, and how it turns out.

[morty]

They're not easy to explain how to build, even though they're not complicated and I'm sure you could make one fairly easily. I actually own one that's not being used (but it is way oversized for most applications) that you're welcome to take a look at, and I have Escobal's book that explains how to "tune" one. The one I have was made by Aquatronics and is about 3 ft tall. I used it on a previous 180gal just as an ordinary air reactor, and it ended up being larger than I needed. (I wanted to add more dissoved air, thus more dissolved O2, to my tank water. I don't plan on using it as an O3 reactor in my new aquarium, I am just going to add the ozone to the skimmer.) You have to be careful when setting one up, because you can add so much additional dissolved gas to the water that everything in the top several inches of your tank gets bubbles all over it like your tank is filled with club soda. This can lead to embolisms in your fish. And with ozone, I can imagine this might be even more risky. Just PM if you'd like to take a look at it --

Morty

[superman]

efficiency of injecting ozone in my opinion isn't even worth worrying about, is ozone expensive to produce..NO!! So why not inject it into a skimmer where you don't have to worry about "tuning" or adding too much dissolved oxygen with your ozone. Just get a cheap skimmer to inject your ozone into (if you are worried about the ozone wrecking your skimmer) and be done with it. Ozone is one of the best tools we can use for our aquariums, just use it in a manner that you can measure and you will be fine.

[TekCat]

Inefficient use of ozone will result in frequent replacement of carbon. Then using crappy skimmers would have to be replaced often too. What I am seeking is an ozone system that could prove to be cheap (DIY) and easy to maintain.

[REEFSTOCK]

I don't run ozone (yet), but I doubt the guys in the club running it feel they are breaking the bank or using lots of time replacing skimmers or carbon or desiccants all the time. I think even at T-rex and RFC they go strait into the skimmers without issues... and they do allocate some time to think about these things.
I like Boomer and RHF as much as the next guy but.... I'm just saying... there is no way I am going to Spazz for advice on skimming on my 10g nano.... (how did you like that for an analogy :lol: )

[superman]

Why run carbon when you are running ozone? Water clarity is one of the main reasons people use carbon, and if you run ozone it is pretty pointless in my opinion to run carbon unless you are trying to expedite the removal of something like medication or die off. Run the ozone through a cheap skimmer if you are worried about it chewing up your good one.
REEFSTOCK is correct, the ozone I run here at T-REX goes directly into the skimmer, we don't run carbon and our water clarity is superb, of course I am a little biased :look:

[REEFSTOCK]

Super, I think the carbon he is talking about is to protect from too much ozone getting into the system (when there is a small skimmer and or short run back to the tank).

[TekCat]

Yes, that's exactly right, you need to pass efluent from ozone injected skimmer through the carbon to remove excess ozone, bromides, and other junk that's been created by ozone interracting with salts in water. They are very toxic and can linger for several minutes before they break down on its own or kill something on its way down. So, either you need a very long water path back to tank (or fuge), or run through carbon.

Speaking about skimmer injection. Does anyone knows how pumps and pump's impellers (stock or modded) hold up against ozone? Especially, I am interested how the Enkamat meshwheels hold up.

[morty]

Did a little searching on RC and found a couple threads that might be helpful --

This one's a Q&A thread with Anthony Calfo about ozone use and implementation:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=639805&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

And here's one that shows a simple ozone reactor:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=701120

TekCat, the one I have is more complex than the one shown in the second thread. Technically, mine is called a hyperbaric gas reactor, where it uses the fact that a liquid under pressure (no matter how slight) will be better able to hold dissolved gas. In operation it is a gas-filled chamber with water trickling over bio-balls at a couple psi higher than ambient. Thus the gas that's pumped into the chamber (air or ozone) is quickly absorbed into the water in a slightly supersaturated state. It's probably overkill for your use -- the design shown in the thread above may be perfect for what you're looking for. But you're still welcome to take a look at it (plus give a hand lifting the beastly tank into place:beerchug: ) I'll PM.

[superman]

Yes, that's exactly right, you need to pass efluent from ozone injected skimmer through the carbon to remove excess ozone, bromides, and other junk that's been created by ozone interracting with salts in water. They are very toxic and can linger for several minutes before they break down on its own or kill something on its way down. So, either you need a very long water path back to tank (or fuge), or run through carbon.

Speaking about skimmer injection. Does anyone knows how pumps and pump's impellers (stock or modded) hold up against ozone? Especially, I am interested how the Enkamat meshwheels hold up.

Sounds like you have been doing a lot of reading, that is very good, keep it up. Randy Holmes Farley does a great job laying out the ground work of how to use ozone.
In most cases we aren't injecting ozone in levels high enough to end up producing large amounts of excess ozone and produce bromide in large enough levels that a refugium, biological (denitrification) can't consume. Of course I am only talking about inside the aquarium and not inside the home. I for one have no problem with dosing small amounts of ozone over longer periods to achieve the ORP that I desire, there are those that believe that large dosages are necessary. I don't want to sound hypocritical or condescending, but sometimes the real world application and results are much more telling of what "needs" to or "must" be done in reference to ozone and what it does after it leaves your chosen reactor.
My advice would be to get an ozonizer with a variable output, good controller (milwaukee) and start out dosing the ozone at lower levels relative to your aquarium size. If your ozonizer stays on for very long periods (3-4 hours) without raising the ORP much at all, then you can ramp up the ozone dosage slowly.
I hope that I am not coming across as trying to start a heated argument about ozone, but I have used it in quite a few applications, inhaled too much of it at times:freak6: , and seen its usage in even more applications, and activated carbon was used in a fraction of the applications. In one large facility that I over see I have a large bio tower that is placed after the skimmer in order to off gas any remaing ozone, in the other large facility the water is simply returned directly into the sump only a foot of two form the sump pump. No problems so far at either location, but on the other hand I have never tested for bromide.
There's at least one other person on this board that has had a much longer history with ozone, maybe he will chime in if he wants.
Answering your question about impellors with ozone, I know that ocean runner and sedra have done very well with ozone injected. The enkamat modification has not been around long enough to show any degredation from ozone, but I'll let you know if mine falls apart. I have a sedra 9000 with the enkamat modification and approximately 150 mg of ozone being injected into it.
A safety note, if you can smell ozone that is being dosed into a small hobby tank (under 500 gallons) I would say that you have WAY too much ozone being injected. This is why I don't use activated carbon on the air leaving my skimmer. If you can't smell the ozone to some degree then you really aren't going to have problems (respiratory, eyes watering, etc.) IMO

[TekCat]

Thanks Super. I do not plan to use ozone for sterilization, just for water clarity and to break down chemicals that softies put out so my SPS corals dont suffer from chem-warfare.

I have 90g tank with 30g sump, ASM-G3 with GVM that barely fits in my sump's skimmer section in all directions. So, I can't really rig anything on top of skimmer collection cup to hold carbon. I have cats that always sniff around the tank/sump/everywhere, and I'd hate to see them inhaling ozone. This is the real reason for me to not use my skimmer as an ozone vessel. As far as getting cheap skimmer just for ozone might've been an alternative, unfortunatelly there is no room in my sump for any additional equipment. That's why I am looking into bulding something that could sit outside of tank/sump, doesn't cost much, reliable, with minimal maintanance.

[sea monkey]

If your goal is sterilization i think the reactor is your best bet otherwise use a skimmer but make sure you understand what you are doing before you just throw something like ozone into your tank.

Too many people treat ozone like a plug and play item and think the ORP is the only thing to worry about. There are a few different reasons why someone would want to use ozone. The main three would be water clarity , increased skimmer production and sterilization.

injecting small amounts of ozone into the skimmer can increase the skimmers foam production by changing the electrostatic charge of some of the particles so they attract each other and form larger particles that is easier for the skimmer to remove. This process will oxidize much of the waste and make the water clearer. however if you use to much ozone you will change the charge of all the particles and they will repel from each other and skimmer production will be much less than if you didn't use it at all . At higher levels, the ozone will also begin to break apart the carbon bonds of the long-chain polar molecules attached to the air bubbles within the skimmer, causing them to break apart and go back into solution. this is why the protein skimmer stops producing foam when too much ozone is added. If you use it with your skimmer decide how much to use by how much flow is going through the skimmer rather than the ORP or size of your tank ,neither of these things has anything to do with what is going on inside the skimmer. The recommended dose is between 0.01 and 0.03 mg o3/L of of flow through a protein skimmer per minute.

For sterilizaion the reactor is a much better choice because you can maintain these high levels of ozone that will sterilize inside the reactor , maintain water clarity and high ORP in the tank and without effecting the efficiency of your skimmer. Most of us spend a fortune on our skimmers, who wants to kill its production.

[TekCat]

For sterilizaion the reactor is a much better choice because you can maintain these high levels of ozone that will sterilize inside the reactor , maintain water clarity and high ORP in the tank and without effecting the efficiency of your skimmer. Most of us spend a fortune on our skimmers, who wants to kill its production.

I definatelly dont want to wreck my skimmer or its foam production. So, reactor it is!!! I've read Boomer's explanations on RC on what involved in making one and its operation. However nothing beats a visual aid, plans, etc... I've seen affordable commercial units (burp style). Again, Boomer recommends to mod them to include some sort of float switch to regulate water level and air pressure inside the reactor. Have anyone seen anything like this?

[sea monkey]

keep in mind that if done right it will increase the skimmers production but you have to make sure you are inputting the right amount and this low level will have little to no sterilizing effect .

[morty]

The whole idea of how ozone works with a skimmer seems a little murky. I see what's been said about skimmer production (mainly on RC), and in general the theory seems to be that a little ozone can increase skimmate, and too much can reduce it. But it sounds like this applies exclusively to when the ozone is injected into the skimmer. However in a properly set up reactor arrangement, the outflow is run through carbon to completely remove the ozone, so in theory the only place ozone is present in the water is inside the reactor, even if the ozone is run at high enough levels to sterilize. The ozone never touches the skimmer chamber. So I would be curious about what the consensus view is on what the skimmer production will do in this scenario.

TekCat, hte reactor I have is a burp-style. The pressure regulation (and dwell time) inside the chamber can be completely controlled by adjusting the inlet valve, outlet valve, and air pressure from the air pump/ozone generator. No float valves are necessary. A few years ago F&S used to sell them but they probably just gathered dust in the stockroom so they quit carrying them. They were made from the same common kind of filter chamber that RO units use for pre-filters/DI cartridges (only upside down in this case). IMO this would be the perfect size for an ozone reactor. (But the one I have is 36" tall, too big.) If you could buy this kind of filter housing from Grainger or somewhere, as well as a low range (5-10 psi) pressure gauge and some thin ozone resistant tubing for the burp line, it should be pretty easy to make one.

[superman]

It is my understanding and also my observation that yes the ozone has to be injected into the skimmer to really see any improvement on skimmate production.

[sea monkey]

It is my understanding and also my observation that yes the ozone has to be injected into the skimmer to really see any improvement on skimmate production.
yep. wont have any effect on the skimmer if ozone is used in a reactor.

I would say it is prolly more common to use too much and lower the skimmers production than it is to use the right amount and get better performance. If you do searches on RC everyone's recommendations for how much ozone to use is always based off the water volume of the whole system rather than the flow through the skimmer . This is just bad advice being handed out over and over and over .

[TekCat]

Another reason to leave skimmer as is :) ...granted, it is nice to get some "overclocking" on a piece of equipment, ...but I am a firm believer that things have to be used in a way that they were designed for.

Ok, back to reactors. I've seen some saturators at the aquatic eco systems:
http://www.aquaticeco.com//images/items/OY10_rgb.jpg

This looks like it could work. Here is their description:
In 1989, AES developed the 3-part oxygen saturator, which performs like an oxygen cone, but with these added benefits:

Comes apart for cleaning.
Has a smaller footprint.
Rated at 80 psi for greater supersaturation.Like the oxygen cones, our saturators feature 100 percent oxygen-absorbing capability. The water and oxygen enter the top of the column, where agitation and shear occurs. As the water and oxygen move downward, their velocity is reduced by the increasing diameters. This allows time and space for any oxygen bubbles that have not dissolved to float. No bubbles escape from the saturator. The AES saturators are made of thick, high-density, black, linear polyethylene with fusion-bonded flanges, except OY35P, which is a low-priced PVC model that features two clear sections so the bubbles can be observed. It is rated at 40 psi maximum.

A valve (not included) is required on the outlet side of all cones and saturators to control the pressure within. When assembling the center flange, we suggest using either a bead of silicone or a Neoprene gasket. Center flange bolts and pressure gauge (0-30 psi) are included. Inlet and outlet fittings and flow meters not included. Overall height is to flange face. Two-year guarantee. OY110 and smaller ship by UPS. Made in USA. Note: To convert pounds of oxygen per hour to grams, multiply pounds x 454.

[morty]

Eeps! I'm pretty sure those are designed for high-stocking-density aquaculture ponds/tanks, like for tilapia etc... (whoa -- check out the price on the smallest unit)

The gas reactor described by Escobol (and the type I believe Boomer is referring to) is designed for aquarium use, and operates only 1-3psi above ambient. Any higher than that (like in the 5-7psi range) and you will start to get the club soda look to your tank.

[TekCat]

Yes, they are quite expensive :)
TekCat, hte reactor I have is a burp-style. The pressure regulation (and dwell time) inside the chamber can be completely controlled by adjusting the inlet valve, outlet valve, and air pressure from the air pump/ozone generator. No float valves are necessary. A few years ago F&S used to sell them but they probably just gathered dust in the stockroom so they quit carrying them. They were made from the same common kind of filter chamber that RO units use for pre-filters/DI cartridges (only upside down in this case). IMO this would be the perfect size for an ozone reactor. (But the one I have is 36" tall, too big.) If you could buy this kind of filter housing from Grainger or somewhere, as well as a low range (5-10 psi) pressure gauge and some thin ozone resistant tubing for the burp line, it should be pretty easy to make one.

I still don't quite understand how burp line plays into grand scheme of things. I guess I'll see it on Sunday :)

[TekCat]

Thanks alot morty to let me take a look at your reactor. Using 10" filter housing should be sufficient for 90G tank. Is there such thing as an ozone safe 10" clear filter housing?

Another question, does the inflowing water needed to be prefiltered to remove detrius? Or ozone would clean the reactor from junk that got into?

[superman]

Great question! I would place the reactor so that it pulls water immediately after the skimmer, that way it is getting prefiltered water. But still try and place it as far from your sump pump as possible, and before your refugium.

[morty]

No problem! Thanks again for helping move the tank! :biggthumpup:

I don't know how much of a problem detritus build up would be even if some gets into the reactor. To clean it might be as simple as stopping the air long enough to let it fill halfway with water, and then shaking it.

I'm not sure about the ozone safe housing question. My guess is that any clear housing that is ozone safe would be more expensive. But the plastic on standard ones is so thick that you probably don't have to worry much about it. I think it would take a long time to break down.

[TekCat]

I just stumbled on Air purge valve at AquaticEco:
http://www.aquaticeco.com//images/items/ST4_rgb.jpg
Their description:This brass valve has an internal float that closes the valve when filled with water. Use it to automatically purge air from a water tank, pipe system, oxygen saturator, etc. Mount it vertically wherever air collects. Also works as a vacuum breaker. 1/4" MPT. 1/4" poly plug included. 3" OAL.
I was thinking that if there were a plastic (or some saltwater/ozone safe) alternative it could very well be used instead of float switches or burp lines on an ozone reactor.
What everyone think on this? And is there such thing as a saltwater/ozone safe air purge valve?

[morty]

I googled "air purge valve" and saw AquaticEco at the top of the list, so they're probably the only good source for them unless they're also known by a different name. Don't know if something like this would be made in plastic.

If you want to use a pressurized reactor I think the burp line design is most simple and easy to build, with no moving parts to fail.

BTW Grainger is a good source for low-range pressure gauges like this one, it's a low-range (0-5psi) for ~$38. (The picture isn't accurate.)

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemKey=2C641

They also have a cheaper one (~$17) but it's range is higher than you'd need, 0-15psi.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemKey=4VB78&BaseItem=2C641

Or if you want to buy a reactor instead of build one, the unit I have is the 36" Hyperbarix made by Filtronics. I found one online retailer that appears to still sell them, they have the 24" ($126) and 16" ($106) models. Here is the link:

http://www.aquatic-store.com/index.html?target=dept_84.html&lang=en-us

[TekCat]

My original thinking was instead of having two lines (main and burp line) going to sump, I thought a purge valve could just release ozone (no water) that could be retrofitted with a small container with carbon (to filter out ozone to the air). That would have been a compact design, with only one pipe going to sump. However, I read up a bit more on air purge valves, and thought a bit. They do leak, and while releasing air, there could be some saltwater droplets that will eventually foul valve with salt creep and make device fail. I guess burp line it is :)