Ich! help!

[Taklu]

My yellow eye tang has what looks like ich, im not sure... its active & moving around & picking stuff...but if its ich what are my options to remedy the situation.

[twincitiesreefer]

hospital tank

[Taklu]

hospital tank

if thats not a choice?

[twincitiesreefer]

well do have a full blown reef?

[hypertech]

Cleaner shrimp, garlic, pristine water quality.

Basically - do everything you can to reduce the stress on the fish and provide it a healthy environment and hope it comes through on its own.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[hypertech]

arrrrrrgggggg - you can't beat ich in 2 days!

I'm sure it helped, but it can come back for some time.



Edit: do some reading before you decide to buy a cleaner wrasse. Many people believe they should stay in the ocean and I'm inclined to agree.

[Taklu]

Edit: do some reading before you decide to buy a cleaner wrasse. Many people believe they should stay in the ocean and I'm inclined to agree.

:agree:


it is a full reef & looks the ich just started

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[Therockguy24]

hahahahahahaha

[crayonbreaker]

Please remove

[MNGold15]

Good thing mine didnt come from the ocean and i know i didnt beat it didnt say that i said he cleaned my fish up in 2 days funny how all of you get on your soap box about preserving the reef and the oceans but if its something you have in your tank its fine cuz you like to look at it :( the cards dont add up

Ok, first off I am going to have to disagree with Matt here. I have had a cleaner wrasse with my 4 tangs for over a year. He does a marvelous job cleaning the fish, and he gets along with everyone fine. Keeping that fish depends on the other fish in the tank, and the tank size. Certain fish really do not do well without them in captivity. Does that make it right to keep them? No, but many of us try to keep things that we shouldn't in our tanks.

And crayonbreaker, look at your last post. Like Matt said you did say that it cleaned your angel in 2 days. So I am confused as to what part you are arguing about.

IMO, do not use any chemicals unless it is garlic or a natural food additive along those lines. Get a cleaner shrimp, and raise your temp to about 81* helps.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[hypertech]

Ok, first off I am going to have to disagree with Matt here. I have had a cleaner wrasse with my 4 tangs for over a year. He does a marvelous job cleaning the fish, and he gets along with everyone fine. Keeping that fish depends on the other fish in the tank, and the tank size. Certain fish really do not do well without them in captivity. Does that make it right to keep them? No, but many of us try to keep things that we shouldn't in our tanks.

And crayonbreaker, look at your last post. Like Matt said you did say that it cleaned your angel in 2 days. So I am confused as to what part you are arguing about.

IMO, do not use any chemicals unless it is garlic or a natural food additive along those lines. Get a cleaner shrimp, and raise your temp to about 81* helps.


That's good to hear. I had done some reading about them when I was looking into a wrasse for my tank and the survival rates were very low. They supposedly also serve a vital function on the reefs that is threatened by over collection. That's why I advised the reading.

crayonbreaker - if yours was captive bred and did not come from the ocean, more power to you. I didn't know you could get them captive raised.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[Therockguy24]

where do they have the tank ones i need it

[crayonbreaker]

I am going to drop the mother of all bombs get ready for it


:fireworks::fireworks::fireworks::fireworks::firew orks:


PETCO


EWWWWWWWW nails on a chalk board

but i think it was worth the risk since ich was all ready there just dont drop the demon water in your tank.

[Therockguy24]

which one did they have more

[Taklu]

Get a cleaner shrimp, and raise your temp to about 81* helps.

OK first lets get the thread back on line... July is way off & I have ich to fight.

Raising the temp is no biggie..I think spreading it over 5-6+ hours should be ok....what say? Anyone second raising the temp to 81*? (searching RC is a no brainer ;))

[crayonbreaker]

and hypo salinity

[hypertech]

The idea behind raising is to increase the metabolism of the fish and make the ich parasite move through its life cycle quicker. I see this recommended frequently and the reason makes sense.

[crayonbreaker]

but if you have corals i dont think you can do that

[hypertech]

and hypo salinity

not in the main tank.

Edit: you're fast.

[Therockguy24]

i just did and im using garlic, but doesnt do much when my emperor wont eat!!!!!!!!!!!

[crayonbreaker]

then as gold has told me it is time to fish him out as treating him will not be effective in the main tank any more you are going to have to use chemicals to get him better if you look up methlen blue dips that is what i did with one of my fishes but it seems that it stresses them out more then just moving them to a tank of there own and dosing copper meds

[Goldpony75]

Raising temp helps with the life cycle of ich but keep in mind it will not eliminate the problem just have closer outbreaks of ich. I have always wondered that if you are able to keep your fish healthy and they have no signs of ich, will the ich be eliminated from a tank?

[crayonbreaker]

but be ready to lose him i have found once they dont eat it is hard to get them back

[crayonbreaker]

I have read that you can never remove ich from a tank it is natural it is just like how we have things living on us and one day they bother us and the next they dont but as you guys said in my other post take the fish out for 6 weeks run a uv and they should be gone but i think the second you put ur fish back in the tank the ich is back to

[hypertech]

Raising temp helps with the life cycle of ich but keep in mind it will not eliminate the problem just have closer outbreaks of ich. I have always wondered that if you are able to keep your fish healthy and they have no signs of ich, will the ich be eliminated from a tank?

In my infinite experience, I have come to the conclusion that there is ich in every tank no matter how strict your QT procedures are. Its like the fish version of the common cold - if the fishes are healthy, the ich won't affect them.

[Taklu]

but be ready to lose him i have found once they dont eat it is hard to get them back


Not so soon :mad_3: we wont go down without a fight :biggthumpup:

[hypoxia]

If there are ich on the fish, raise the temperature, which causes them to fall off a little quicker. Quarantine the fish, keep the temperature up for six weeks until you put them back in.

Raising temp helps with the life cycle of ich but keep in mind it will not eliminate the problem just have closer outbreaks of ich. I have always wondered that if you are able to keep your fish healthy and they have no signs of ich, will the ich be eliminated from a tank?

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[Taklu]

spend some cash and get a cleaner shrimp if you dont like the fish idea the shrimp is cooler any how but the shrimp is limited by location and the cleaner fish will just chase the other fish around


No store close by had one in stock & Im a newborn dad so travelling miles was out.................













..................at least for today ;)

[Goldpony75]

I know all this buyt I was just wondering. I have experience with ich and have defeated it many times. I'm not sure if anyone at the OD meeting seen that the copperband that was marked sold had ich on it, Well I'm the one that bought it. and right now he is visibly ich free. and he was this way the same night.If there are ich on the fish, raise the temperature, which causes them to fall off a little quicker. Quarantine the fish, keep the temperature up for six weeks until you put them back in.

[crayonbreaker]

Mine does the same heavly airate the water and you will see the scaring on the fish as the air gets traped in the skin look more toward the moring when the tep is lower and you will see the ich back

[hypoxia]

. . . . .

[maxseeley]

CLEANER SHRIMP AND CLEANER WRASSES DON'T EAT ICH!!!!

The eat larger parasitic organisms like trematodes and parasitic copepods, but they don't eat ich.

As far as raising your temp. to 81 - that is well within the limits of tolerance for a reef. All this is going to do is speed up the life cycle of the ich. If it is a small infestation, this will get it off the fish faster and hopefully your fish will be able to fight off the next wave as it adjusts to your aquarium. If this fish was healthy, and your aquarium was infested, this will only make matters worse.

IMO - the only thing garlic does is stimulate the appetite. If your fish is not eating, then this might be a good way to get them to eat. Eating translates to good health.

[maxseeley]

In my infinite experience, I have come to the conclusion that there is ich in every tank no matter how strict your QT procedures are. Its like the fish version of the common cold - if the fishes are healthy, the ich won't affect them.

Absolutly not true.

[hypertech]

Maybe people's QT procedure's aren't as they seem then. How else do you explain a person who QT's everything and still gets an ich outbreak after a stressful event like a new fish addition, temperature issue, etc.

I wish I could find some references but I'm on my way out the door.

[mattb]

... Im a newborn dad
..



CONGRATS!!!!!:beerchug:

[morty]

Sometimes ich will seem to disappear from the fish, after the cysts rupture and sink to the bottom of the tank. Then after several days, they hatch and become free swimming (tomites), looking for a fish to attach to, but in numbers much greater than before. This is why ich can 'vanish' only to return with a vengence. I think mechanical filtration can help if it is continuously used for a few weeks, because it will trap the tomites before they can find a host. But it should be something like a diatom filter, because they're so small they'll pass right thru most other filters. A Magnum 350 running with diatom powder would probably work (but note that you'd have to clean it every couple of days because they clog pretty fast when using the powder).

Note that some tomites won't get trapped, and the fish will probably get new spots. But the key here is to prevent a huge infestation, and give the fish a fighting chance to then fend it off on its own.

Ich can be sort of mysterious. I've only observed it in newer tanks, in older tanks it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem. Sometimes I've wondered if this is because they have an established population of pods, and the pods eat the resting cysts when they fall off the fish :confused:

[Taklu]

CONGRATS!!!!!:beerchug:


:biggrin: :biggthumpup: :beerchug:

[Taklu]

Sometimes ich will seem to disappear from the fish, after the cysts rupture and sink to the bottom of the tank. Then after several days, they hatch and become free swimming (tomites), looking for a fish to attach to, but in numbers much greater than before. This is why ich can 'vanish' only to return with a vengence. I think mechanical filtration can help if it is continuously used for a few weeks, because it will trap the tomites before they can find a host. But it should be something like a diatom filter, because they're so small they'll pass right thru most other filters. A Magnum 350 running with diatom powder would probably work (but note that you'd have to clean it every couple of days because they clog pretty fast when using the powder).

Note that some tomites won't get trapped, and the fish will probably get new spots. But the key here is to prevent a huge infestation, and give the fish a fighting chance to then fend it off on its own.

Ich can be sort of mysterious. I've only observed it in newer tanks, in older tanks it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem. Sometimes I've wondered if this is because they have an established population of pods, and the pods eat the resting cysts when they fall off the fish :confused:


Diatom powder? you lost me there. I have something related to 'ozone' in my chemicals shelf not sure where I got that from but is that considered a Diatom?

I have a magnum 350 hooked up & it runs carbon, phosban & some seachem product that removes nitrites. runs for about 8-12 hours everyday.

In your experience have you seen Ich infect a fish after its been healthy for a while...the tang has been in the tank for about 3 weeks without issues.

todays update... I upped the temp in the tank to about 82F last night & the ich seems to have vanished for now. plan to do a FW dip...but will the ich come back with a vengeance?

[wes]

Sometimes I've wondered if this is because they have an established population of pods, and the pods eat the resting cysts when they fall off the fish :confused:

this is an interesting thought. I've often wondered about what might be able to eat the ich parasites/cysts other than the standard cleaner wrasses/gobies/shrimp. Because it can be so pervasive, I've also wondered if there might be some survival even through digestion.

[maxseeley]

Maybe people's QT procedure's aren't as they seem then. How else do you explain a person who QT's everything and still gets an ich outbreak after a stressful event like a new fish addition, temperature issue, etc.

I wish I could find some references but I'm on my way out the door.

We have tons of fish only systems and reefs that don't have a trace of ich. If someone gets ich in their system and is QT'ing then they are not QT'ing properly. For instance, keeping a fish in a separate aquarium for 4 weeks and just visually inspecting them for ich before adding them to a system is not sufficient. All fish regardless of apparent health should be treated with copper and other drugs before adding to a show system.

Also, it is possible to have ich in your system and not see visual signs on the fish(not seeing it, doesn't mean the fish is not infected, because one of the most vulnerable spots on a fish is the gills). But see a flare up when there is a stressful situation because the population density of the ich flares up because the stress makes the fish more vulnerable to infection.

I will partially agree with you statement, in that it is much harder to keep ich out of a reef. In theory, it is possible to add ich to your reef system with the addition of corals.

[maxseeley]

Diatom powder? you lost me there. I have something related to 'ozone' in my chemicals shelf not sure where I got that from but is that considered a Diatom?

I have a magnum 350 hooked up & it runs carbon, phosban & some seachem product that removes nitrites. runs for about 8-12 hours everyday.

In your experience have you seen Ich infect a fish after its been healthy for a while...the tang has been in the tank for about 3 weeks without issues.

todays update... I upped the temp in the tank to about 82F last night & the ich seems to have vanished for now. plan to do a FW dip...but will the ich come back with a vengeance?

I would not dip the fish until you visually see signs of ich on the fish or heavy breathing. Dipping a fish is stressful and should only been done when necessary.

Do some reading about the life cycle of ich and you will understand why a apparantly healthy fish can come down with ich after being in your aquarium for 3 weeks.

[Taklu]

I would not dip the fish until you visually see signs of ich on the fish or heavy breathing. Dipping a fish is stressful and should only been done when necessary.

I did see Ich, white speckles on fin & body. I saw what I thought a precursor..two spots a week ago & then it vanished after a day.
Yesterday when I got back from work I could see the Ich right away...it had a fair sprinkling of the white speckles; then I started this thread.

All through this I have not seen the fish have any trouble breathing.


today morning its all gone. I will check back in an hour when I go home for a quick bite.

Do some reading about the life cycle of ich and you will understand why a apparantly healthy fish can come down with ich after being in your aquarium for 3 weeks

Thats next on my list while Im saving my fish (if it still needs treatment)

[morty]

Diatom powder? you lost me there. I have something related to 'ozone' in my chemicals shelf not sure where I got that from but is that considered a Diatom?

I have a magnum 350 hooked up & it runs carbon, phosban & some seachem product that removes nitrites. runs for about 8-12 hours everyday.

Diatom powder is also called diatomaceous earth. It's actually the dried-out frustules (shells) of marine diatoms. I guess areas of the deep oceans are covered with it, sometimes miles thick. It works great as a water polisher, because particles get stuck in the porus little shells. Marineland used to include a packet when you bought a Magnum canister filter, but they stopped doing it, maybe because people just didn't use it properly, or because of liability reasons. The stuff is very fine, and puffs into the air easily. You want to be careful if working with it often, and wear a mask, because breathing too much of it in can cause silicosis.

It sounds like your 350 is currently using the media cartridge, but for diatom powder you have to use the pleated filter. The best way to use it is to set up the magnum and have it running on the tank, and then take some sort of plastic container put it under the filter inlet/outlets so the filter is now just cycling the water in the container. (You'll probably have to move the magnum hoses to the front of the tank to be able to dip the container under the inlet/outlets). Then add a heaping tablespoon of the powder to the container. You will see the water in the container get cloudy as it gets mixed up and sucked into the filter. It will then evenly coat the filter, and the water will clear up. Usually takes less than a minute. Leave the magnum running as you remove the container. This is important because if you shut it off the powder can drop off the pleats and you will lose your even coating. The whole idea of using the plastic container is to keep diatom powder from being mixed into your tank water (although it would probably be harmless). I know this all sounds like a pita but once you're done it a time or two it's not so bad and it will really polish your tank water. Another alternative is to get a Vortex diatom filter, I've never used one but I hear they make this process easier. Or if you can find a used Whisper Diatomagic, they are designed to do this too, but they aren't made any more.

In your experience have you seen Ich infect a fish after its been healthy for a while...the tang has been in the tank for about 3 weeks without issues.

Yup, I have a purple tang that just developed a little ich after no issues for about 6 weeks. :coolmad: But my tank is fairly new so I'm not too surprised. None of the other fish seem to be getting it at this point. I'm doing the treatment with the Magnum and also running a 25W sterilizer with a Hydor Pico as the pump.

todays update... I upped the temp in the tank to about 82F last night & the ich seems to have vanished for now. plan to do a FW dip...but will the ich come back with a vengeance

(Max answered some of this as well but I'm not going to re-type :))
If the ich has dropped off the fish I don't know if a FW dip will do anything but stress the fish. If the ich comes back it will mainly be from the cysts hatching elsewhere in the tank. I think it would help to kill them/filter them out before they can re-infest. Here's a link that shows the life cycle.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/blichcycle.htm

[Taklu]

(Max answered some of this as well but I'm not going to re-type :))
If the ich has dropped off the fish I don't know if a FW dip will do anything but stress the fish. If the ich comes back it will mainly be from the cysts hatching elsewhere in the tank. I think it would help to kill them/filter them out before they can re-infest. Here's a link that shows the life cycle.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/blichcycle.htm

Thanks Morty & Max & goldpony. Its the kind of situation where two train of thoughts run opposite. Like why do FW dip on a new fish (or coral) like a lot of people recommend (even on here). i dont do it to any of my fish or coral, but being new to SW I would like to know what it means & hear what people do to make my judgement of the situation.

I firlmy believe in "dont try to fix it, if aint broke"

I was inclined to buy a cleaner wrasse..& research showed they have a dismal survival rate, Im not a butcher so now Im looking for a cleaner shrimp to prevent/reduce the impact of a future occurence. I would like to hear from Old hands like you what you think of this new found wisdom.

[thegrimreefer]

Not the course I'd recommend, but it DID work.

http://www.tcmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1027

This tang is still alive today, has shown no signs of relapse, and looks great. She thinks she's the "tank boss". Probably is, too.

[crayonbreaker]

please read

http://www.aquahobby.com/marine/e_amboinensis.php

[crayonbreaker]

and another

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71987

there are way to many insances on the net as well as fish store owners that use cleaners to eat ich. I dont know were you get that they dont as most cleaner fish that is all they will live off of please post your supporting atricals

[thegrimreefer]

And if you're still reading all this, read this as well: (http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s561887.htm)

[hypertech]

Very interesting - each little fish cleans 2300 fish a day.

[RogersCG]

please read

http://www.aquahobby.com/marine/e_amboinensis.php

I would tend to listen to the likes of Max and others in this thread than to take much from a website with comments from people whom I do not know their experience level. Lots of misinformation out there...

Just my :2cents:

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[maxseeley]

but you can not argue aginst first had experances as well as i dont think that you have to worry about articals writien by a person for ABC also the sheer number of people that have had succes with it.... this goes way above what he is saying its one against many in the fact that cleaner shrimp and cleaner fish eat ich as a matter of fact ed at OD uses cleaner fish in his tanks to eat ich


CLEANER SHRIMP AND CLEANER WRASSES DON'T EAT ICH. Look in any major publication from people like Julian Sprung, Eric Borneman, JC Delbeck..

I have never seen a cleaner shrimp or cleaner wrasse go up and eat ich off of a fish. I have seen cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses clean fish that are infested with ich, and the ich remains.

[maxseeley]

And if you're still reading all this, read this as well: (http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s561887.htm)

There is a source for you - read the article above, there is no mention of cleaner wrasses eating Cryptocaryon. As stated in the article, 95% of the cleaner wrasses diet is isopods. Cryptocaryon is not a isopod.

Another source: The Reef Aquarium, Julian Sprung and JC Delbeck

"Most cleaners are ineffective at removing protozoan parasites such as Cryptocaryon (ich) due to its smaller size. For this reason, we do not recommend adding these fish if the intent is to deal with a protozoan infection. Cleaner fish are best used for the removal of larger parasitic organism such as trematodes and copepods(p. 647-648, Delbeck, Sprung)."

Not to mention that most cleaner wrasses cannot be maintained in captivity. Yes there are a very small number of exceptions to this rule, but in general is a good guideline to live by. Not to mention, that it is hugely irrisponsible to remove this fish from the wild because of the services that they provide.

Using OD as an example is a very poor example. How many new fish go through OD on a weekly basis that are going to provide a food source for the wrasses? I don't know weather or not Ed is using them specifically for ich control, but I am sure that he is not depending on them for total control and using copper to deal with the majority of ich infested fish.

My main service tech is Jeffie who was the main currator for Rainforrest Cafe for 6 years. They never kept a cleaner wrasse at Rainforest and would never have considered it for Ich control.

[crayonbreaker]

Pplease remove

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[maxseeley]

but you can not argue aginst first had experances as well as i dont think that you have to worry about articals writien by a person for ABC also the sheer number of people that have had succes with it.... this goes way above what he is saying its one against many in the fact that cleaner shrimp and cleaner fish eat ich as a matter of fact ed at OD uses cleaner fish in his tanks to eat ich

who are these "sheer number of people"?

[maxseeley]

Please post the info I spent all day looking and have not seen one thing that said other wise plus i just watched my cleaner wrasse remove ich from my coral beauty also if you were to have watched planet earth on discovery channel they were talking about how they play a role in the same was as they do in are tanks i can not take your word on it as you have posted no supporting evidence as well as i have seen them clean ich first hand. Ill make it easy on you and look for one of there books but please post a web page or a scan from a book

No supporting evidence? Are you kidding? You posted a blog posting from someone who is not even a recognized scientist in the industry.

People like you are a detriment to our hobby. You don't head the warnings of the experts regardless of the cost to the environment.

Another question, do you have two cleaner wrasses? Because you are going to need one cleaner wrasse to clean the other because they are suseptable to the parasites that they clean.

[hypoxia]

Run-on sentences give me a headache and should be outlawed.

[maxseeley]

Here is another good website ( I would agree with 100% of what is said on this site):

http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/the-marine-ich-epidemic/

This is an exert taken from this page

(3) Cleaner Wrasse (Labroides Dimdiatus) and Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata Amboinensis) eat Ich- WRONG. Wrasses and shrimp eat necrotic tissue, damage scales, and scabs. It has been well documented that the symbiotic “cleaning stations” in the reefs by wrasses and shrimps are there to help heal wounds from carnivore attacks, territorial fights, and other skin/scale injuries. It is possible that these cleaners might knock the parasite off the fish while doing this, but do nothing to control the reproduction and life cycle of Ich in your aquarium.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[maxseeley]

Yes, yes that is all I am - a "soap boxer" with no experience :(

[crayonbreaker]

didnt say you didnt have experience just simply stated your strongest support say MOST not all

[Taklu]

Can someone move my tang to the sump plz.














Did I say Tang? move this thread I meant. :biggrin:

[hypertech]

Hopefully you at least got some of your question answered ..... maybe .....

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[mtfatwork]

sticky a thread like this? Seriously? I would entertain the idea of stickying a thread about parasites and treatment, but there is no way this one would be the one. If I were to sticky a thread it would have to be constructive all the way through, and this one definitley is not.


I would say more right now but I am wayy to crabby...

[crayonbreaker]

lol well a ich sticky would be great as it seems like a very common question

[hypertech]

There is some good info in this thread - I hadn't heard of the diatomacious earth filtering before. I also learned tha tI was too quick to assume every tank has ich. If you treat every fish and have a fallow QT for other new additions (corals, etc) - you probably could be ich free.

If a number of posts were deleted, it might be a more worthy thread.

[hypoxia]

I will respectfully point out that communication skills are key to being taken seriously. If a person, say, doesn't bother to state themselves CLEARLY by using punctuation, capitalization, and proper spelling, how do they expect others to take them seriously? If one cannot communicate to me clearly, don't expect me to give a clear answer.

And now I make use of this wonderful ignore feature for the first time ever.

Stop breaking my brain.

[morty]

In the link I posted about the ich life cycle I learned a fact about the parasite that I didn't know before, and I think it may be the very thing that leads people to (erroneously) claim that "ich is always there in your tank".

When ich is in tomont stage 1, imbedded in a fishs' gills, it can remain in that stage indefinitely, until it senses conditions are right for 'hatching'. I'd bet dollars to donuts that a stage 1 tomont waits until the fish is stressed before hatching, to give it the best chance to re-infest and spread (this accomplished via intelligent design by the Flying Spaghetti Monster).

So, healthy-looking fish get shipped to the U.S., get stressed out when placed in our tanks that have been ich-free for years, and voila, ich. It's worth noting that the link implies that Max's method of quarantining the fish for several weeks in a tank with copper will not kill the ich unless the gill-imbedded cyst hatches. So, I'd bet the stress during quarantine is as important as the copper in eradicating ich.

About using cleaner wrasses for ich. Ich is basically non-existant in nature, when talking about at the levels of infestation we sometimes see in aquaria. It's not a viable food source for wrasses. Will an infested fish beg for relief from a shrimp or wrasse? Of course. But don't think this means that the wrasse is being effective at all in getting rid of the parasite. I think people mistakenly think that because a wrasse *appears* to be picking at ich spots, that it is doing so effectively. Time and again I've seen that it is not a good call to keep cleaner wrasses, period. But, like the occasional moorish idol, there are exceptions. I consider myself relatively experienced but I don't think I'd try to keep either.

(btw - I'd be REALLY interested in seeing the site that claims to have captive-raised cleaner wrasses. I think they are pelagic spawners, and if they are, I'm calling B.S.)

[hypertech]

I think he said it was labeled tank bred at Petco so the source of that info is suspect.

[Taklu]

Hopefully you at least got some of your question answered ..... maybe .....

its been helpful & the debate continues in my mind whether I want to take it out for a FW dip...coz now the ich is visible again but hasnt taken over the fish & the fish is very active & chasing the damsel around.. ate eats flakes when offered & also smokes weed. Maybe I will keep an eye ....

sticky a thread like this? Seriously? I would entertain the idea of stickying a thread about parasites and treatment, but there is no way this one would be the one. If I were to sticky a thread it would have to be constructive all the way through, and this one definitley is not.


I would say more right now but I am wayy to crabby...

the tang would love some carb ;)

[hypertech]

I'm not sure a FW dip would be effective. At best it would kill some parasites on the fish but it will get reinfected right away as soon as you put it back in the tank because the water is full of them.

I wouldn't stress the fish by trying to catch it and then dipping it. Keeping the stress low seems to be key to effectively fighting off the ich.

[Taklu]

So, I'd bet the stress during quarantine is as important as the copper in eradicating ich.


what do you think about this as far as stressing & calming a fish goes...

http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine-fish-care-health-disease-treatment/18887-freshwater-dip-marine-fishes.html

[Taklu]

I wouldn't stress the fish by trying to catch it and then dipping it. Keeping the stress low seems to be key to effectively fighting off the ich.

Trying to keep him happy! a water change is on the way & the mech filters running... contemplating a diatom run...seem to have everything required available at home.

[morty]

what do you think about this as far as stressing & calming a fish goes...

http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine-fish-care-health-disease-treatment/18887-freshwater-dip-marine-fishes.html

For your existing situation? I'd avoid FW dips if the ich doesn't seem to be covering the fish.

I guess my first recommendation would be to put it in a bare-bottom tank with an *established* bio-filter, preferably sponge type, and treat with copper for a couple of weeks. But if that's not available, I'd now try to minimize stress and kill/remove the free-swimming stage somehow, again for the next couple of weeks. If the fish is eating etc., just monitor the level of infestation and consider a dip only if it gets worse.

The 'stress' I was talking about in my last post was referring to what might be necessary to get dormant ich cysts to hatch and be killed by copper. You're way past that stage now.

[morty]

Just following up with another webpage about ich.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

This one definitely steers people away from doing FW dips, and recommends longer-term hyposalinity as a preferred treatment over copper. It also has some other interesting points about the 'longevity' of ich in aquaria.

[Chris Goetz]

Just following up with another webpage about ich.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

This one definitely steers people away from doing FW dips, and recommends longer-term hyposalinity as a preferred treatment over copper. It also has some other interesting points about the 'longevity' of ich in aquaria.
Excellent link!
I've never had ich so I've never really read much on it, but this was a great explanation.

Thanks,
Chris

[wes]

Excellent link!
I've never had ich so I've never really read much on it, but this was a great explanation.

Thanks,
Chris

I have to agree, this is a great article.

[Ocean Devotion]

I just wanted to share a few things here after reading the posts.
Here at Ocean Devotion we do not use any chemicals in our tanks(none). Adding chemicals for us would be wrong, You would take the fish home with a poor immmune system and the fish would be doomed. Its hard enough to introduce a healthy fish sometimes. If there is a need we remove our confine the fish or coral from the main system. I dont believe in The chemical thing. Good water quality, Relaxed tanks, along with the right mix of different fish in the tanks,and the right food are key,
Cleaner wrasses do live hardy in the tank as long as your also supplying the right food for them, Most people feed larger foods, They need something smaller. I have had mine for over a year.
The main reason we have them in the tanks is for parasites and it really does relax the larger fish, Its a comfort zone for all. Cant you see the minute there in the tank how all rush over to greeet the wrasse.
I personally have seen more people kill off the cleaner shrimp because of low iodine or something they purchased that killed it.
Most Cleaner wrasses are tank raised. as are cleaner shrimp. Wrasses are more mobile and less expensive. They dont wait till the fish comes they go get it.


Vinny

[Taklu]

Just following up with another webpage about ich.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

This one definitely steers people away from doing FW dips, and recommends longer-term hyposalinity as a preferred treatment over copper. It also has some other interesting points about the 'longevity' of ich in aquaria.

Exellent link. I have this thread bookmarked. so if ich is not present in the ocean does it fins its way from mixing freshwater/FW fish in a single facility? not that I expect an answer but am talking out loud.
It will be terrible torture to buy good fish & QT them for six weeks. Ok once the ich makes it in how susceptible are the other fish in the tank..does it spread like wildfire?

[wes]

I knew that cleaner gobies (neon gobies) were tank raised, but I had no idea about the cleaner wrasses. Would you recommend some kind of cyclop food for them, then?

[Taklu]

Cleaner wrasses do live hardy in the tank as long as your also supplying the right food for them, Most people feed larger foods, They need something smaller. I have had mine for over a year.
The main reason we have them in the tanks is for parasites and it really does relax the larger fish, Its a comfort zone for all. Cant you see the minute there in the tank how all rush over to greeet the wrasse.
I personally have seen more people kill off the cleaner shrimp because of low iodine or something they purchased that killed it.
Most Cleaner wrasses are tank raised. as are cleaner shrimp. Wrasses are more mobile and less expensive. They dont wait till the fish comes they go get it.


Vinny

That note is very very interesting... there was almost a sump shout on here. if the cleaner wrasses are tank raised that should make them more suitable to tank life coz they are hardy & also take readily to prepared food..is that a true statement?

I also find that many online stores describe the Neon striped goby as a cleaner much the same as they do for a cleaner wrasse.. so which one is a good choice as I would like to have a pair in my tank... not to clear the ich but as a general good husbandry rule (esp if they have a calming effect )

[Ocean Devotion]

Normally I make sure everyone else is fed then mush up a small amount of mysis w/cyclopeze. Or occassionally flake in place of the eze.

[Ocean Devotion]

Noen gobies do nothing for the fish in my opinion. Pretty in pairs and do mate in the tank.
Blue streaks wrasses or best kept as singles unless you have lots of swimming room. They will fight in pairs and 1 will jump, Trial and error on 2 wrasses.
I have 1 blue streak in my 125gal and keeps all things in order. I will share this, they will get hassled a bit if you have a mated pair of clowns that lay eggs. The clowns will adjust and realize that the wrasses do want the eggs and settle down in harmony.

[Taklu]

So is a blue streak wrasse a suitable choice for a 50g with significant LR & hiding places if needed ..not to say there are any predatory fish in the tank..& am wondering if I can ask here; if you have one in stock thats tank raised & how much?

[Ocean Devotion]

literally cleaned us out over the weekend. We will have more in next week, around 25 I believe. A 50 Gallon will be fine, Just 1 though.
Watch the mood of all the fish, If 1 is a little excited after introducing the wrasse put a top on for a day or 2 till the fish settles down. Then all will be good....

[hypertech]

Does your supplier get them tank raised?

[morty]

That's interesting about the tank raised wrasses. I'm wondering if their life cycle has been completely closed, i.e. adults will spawn in a tank, produce ferilized eggs, the eggs are then incubated, hatch and grow to adulthood, and the cycle can be repeated. Or, are they the "tank raised" type of fish where they are netted in the ocean as planktonic larvae, and raised to adulthood in aquaria. (I think there are a lot of fish that are raised in this way.) In both cases I think it's eco-friendly, I guess I was just assuming "tank bred" instead of "tank raised".

[Taklu]

That's interesting about the tank raised wrasses. I'm wondering if their life cycle has been completely closed, i.e. adults will spawn in a tank, produce ferilized eggs, the eggs are then incubated, hatch and grow to adulthood, and the cycle can be repeated. Or, are they the "tank raised" type of fish where they are netted in the ocean as planktonic larvae, and raised to adulthood in aquaria. (I think there are a lot of fish that are raised in this way.) In both cases I think it's eco-friendly, I guess I was just assuming "tank bred" instead of "tank raised".

Thats why I find it interesting...now Im assuming theyr tank raised... but if these are tank bred... i dont have a conscience anymore :cool:

[Taklu]

literally cleaned us out over the weekend. We will have more in next week, around 25 I believe. A 50 Gallon will be fine, Just 1 though.
Watch the mood of all the fish, If 1 is a little excited after introducing the wrasse put a top on for a day or 2 till the fish settles down. Then all will be good....


Your next batch is gonna be sold too after this post :gay1: keep one for me

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[thegrimreefer]

Rather than just making every good thread sticky, How about a sticky FAQ thread that is nothing but ONE post, edited to include links to the various "good" threads?

I'd still love to see a Wiki on here.

[Taklu]

Is this the one Vinny is talking about? both sites come with a warning!! not expensive but :mad:


http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/productDetail.asp?did=1&pid=992&cid=290
http://www.marinedepotlive.com/common-cleaner-wrasse---labroides-dimidiatus-fish--wrasses.html

[crayonbreaker]

yup that is them

[Taklu]

yup that is them

& did u say u got em from Petco?

[crayonbreaker]

Yes I got mine at petco but I have seen them in just about every fish store I have been at. Petco is hard as you have to get them before they put them into there system because after that I think there chance of survival gets cut in half.

[maxseeley]

I just wanted to share a few things here after reading the posts.
Here at Ocean Devotion we do not use any chemicals in our tanks(none). Adding chemicals for us would be wrong, You would take the fish home with a poor immmune system and the fish would be doomed. Its hard enough to introduce a healthy fish sometimes. If there is a need we remove our confine the fish or coral from the main system. I dont believe in The chemical thing. Good water quality, Relaxed tanks, along with the right mix of different fish in the tanks,and the right food are key,
Cleaner wrasses do live hardy in the tank as long as your also supplying the right food for them, Most people feed larger foods, They need something smaller. I have had mine for over a year.
The main reason we have them in the tanks is for parasites and it really does relax the larger fish, Its a comfort zone for all. Cant you see the minute there in the tank how all rush over to greeet the wrasse.
I personally have seen more people kill off the cleaner shrimp because of low iodine or something they purchased that killed it.
Most Cleaner wrasses are tank raised. as are cleaner shrimp. Wrasses are more mobile and less expensive. They dont wait till the fish comes they go get it.


Vinny

Who tank raises cleaner wrasses? If anybody was going to do it, it would be ORA.

According to Dave Palmer, the owner of Pacific Aqua Farms, Aquarium Arts, breeding stations in the Solomen Islands, no wrasse has ever been breed in captivity - especially a cleaner wrasse.

[maxseeley]

That note is very very interesting... there was almost a sump shout on here. if the cleaner wrasses are tank raised that should make them more suitable to tank life coz they are hardy & also take readily to prepared food..is that a true statement?

I also find that many online stores describe the Neon striped goby as a cleaner much the same as they do for a cleaner wrasse.. so which one is a good choice as I would like to have a pair in my tank... not to clear the ich but as a general good husbandry rule (esp if they have a calming effect )

Please, find one site that lists tank raised cleaner wrasses or says that they are easy to keep.

[YiNYaNg]

When ever I stick my arm into my tank my cleaner shrimp always goes directly to my small cuts or scabs and picks on it and it hurts. If I have no scabs or cuts it picks on flakey dried skin areas.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[maxseeley]

When did any one say they were easy to keep or did i just miss that part?

It was implied that they were tank raised and hardy by a number of post - but you are right, it was not directly said.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[maxseeley]

Look, I am not trying to start an arguement, so let me summarize what I know about cleaner wrasses:

1.)They don't eat ich
2.) They are hard to keep. There are some fish that are hard to keep that have a higher chance of success if presented the right conditions. I don't believe that the percentage is high enough to warrant the collection of cleaner wrasses. In general, 99.9% of these fish languish in captivity. Let me say, that I am not innocent. I have made this mistake many many times. I have never seen a cleaner wrasse thrive in captivity.
3.) As far as I know they can't be breed in captivity. I could be wrong on this, but my experience and some very reliable sources tell me otherwise.
4.) Why with all the things state above would you keep one when there are plenty of other organisms that will perform the above functions and do well in captivity.

It is not my experience that cleaner wrasses overall have a calming effect on fish. When a fish wants to be cleaned, they are more then happy to see a cleaner wrasse that they recognize. But there are two instances when this is not true: 1.) after a while the fish can grow tired of being cleaned and will get irratated with the cleaner - even to the point of chasing them off and 2.) if the cleaner is not from the same region, a fish that doesn't recognize that cleaner can get very pissed when that cleaner tries to clean them.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[hypertech]

have no idea of your fish keeping experience

Max has plenty of fish keeping experience.

http://aquaticarts.com/

[Taklu]

Please, find one site that lists tank raised cleaner wrasses or says that they are easy to keep.

That was a question to OD(Vinny) & I guess you're asking him too

Im learning from your experiences so feel free... its interesting to note that none of the other experienced hands have mentioned anything here about the cleaner wrasses.

[Goldpony75]

You talk about majority rules and your the main one who will fight tooth and nail until you get the answer you want. I suggest you think and watch and be careful who you say doesnt have experience in this hobby. you have proved to everyone on this board that you have very little.

[hypertech]

I want to add that having little reef experience is not a bad thing and the people on this board are very welcoming to inexperienced people.

Its this notion that you'll keep arguing until you hear what you want to hear that has driven off the most knowledgeable people here. In case you hadn't noticed, they are no longer posting to your threads.

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[crayonbreaker]

With that said I would like to thank all of those that have given me help as it has been very helpful insulting or not it is all helpful and if all else fails it makes me research it my self

[twincitiesreefer]

wow crayon breaker give it up please?

[Goldpony75]

Heres one link to back what Max says about them not doing well in capitivity.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/msub28wrasse/l/blpickhicleaner.htm
And here is another of why they shouldnt be kept, but I suppose this board of experts doesnt know what they are talking about.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm

[MNGold15]

Reading through this thread, I do not understand why anyone is still posting in this thread. It now has became more about flaming members rather than arguing good points.

I vote for this thread to be cleaned up/closed.

[Taklu]

you have proved to everyone on this board that you have very little.

Me? Im not denying that I dont... but thats why Im asking questions

[Goldpony75]

No not you lolMe? Im not denying that I dont... but thats why Im asking questions

[Taklu]

No not you lol

Damn I almost :cry:

but O well :biggthumpup:

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[crayonbreaker]

I am done good news hu :)

[twincitiesreefer]

i to vote for this thread to close and i only have two posts in it!!

[Goldpony75]

I was just reading the link that Morty posted about ich and found this in it. This comes directly from the article.
Can cleaner wrasses control "Ich"?

"Many aquarists regard common cleaner wrasses, Labroides dimidiatus, as effective agents for the control and treatment of marine "Ich". While this would be a desirable situation, it is unfortunately not true. Grutter (2000) showed that L. dimidiatus feeds mainly on the larvae of gnatid isopods throughout its life, and C. irritans theronts were never found in it's diet. Fish remain infected with theronts despite the presence of cleaner wrasse, and even the cleaner wrasse may become infected (personal observation). "

Here is the link and scroll down about half way.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

[hypoxia]

Damn. I missed so much by having Crayonbreaker on my ignore list. . . . So tempted to just un-ignore and see the latest hulabaloo. . . .

[Goldpony75]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Damn. I missed so much by having Crayonbreaker on my ignore list. . . . So tempted to just un-ignore and see the latest hulabaloo. . . .

[hypertech]

If you are just too tempted, you can click the little view post link on the top right of the post to see what he wrote without removing him from the ignore list.

Guess how I know ......

[crayonbreaker]

doesn't this prove me right? as well as vinny's post? I am so glad you all love me :gred

[morty]

crayonbreaker, I'll say it again. An infested fish will gladly beg to be cleaned by shrimp or wrasses, and the cleaner will oblige. You claim you have seen wrasses eat ich. Correction. What you have seen are cleaner wrasses ATTEMPT to eat ich. The ich trophonts are imbedded below the fishes' epidermis and cannot be effectively removed by cleaner organisms (except perhaps the freshly attached tomite). You can't claim that the cleaner is successfully EATING the ich unless you have examined the contents of the wrasse's stomach. Nothing can be concluded from the extent of your observations.

And a couple questions. Do you not think that the authors that claim that cleaners don't eat ich, might have observed the same behavior that you have? And don't you think it's safe to say that they went the scientific step further to investigate if it was actually happening and not merely appearing to happen? (Or if a particular author or expert didn't actually do the research, they at least looked over a peer-reviewed scientific publication of someone who did?)

[crayonbreaker]

please remove

[wes]

in this hobby, there is a HELL of a lot of pseudo science. It's up to the individual to evaluate the validity of the writing. Look at sources and the methods used to come to the conculsions given. The article I read was wonderful and did not claim that they "ate ich" as this statement in itself is inaccurate. There is no such thing as ich in saltwater. It's cryptocarryon irritus. ich is a freshwater parasite only distantly related.

[Taklu]

ich is a freshwater parasite only distantly related.

Thats what I concluded from the link that Morty posted......























...........pending further research...or references....:gay1:

[Zibba]

Is this thread real?

Great knowledge from Max and Morty.

Crayonbreaker - you are again wrong and failing to take advise and knowledge from much better aquarists than yourself. I'm not even going to try with you any more. I just can't understand why? Why do you continue to run around this board asking questions and defending any information you get? Why do you insist on giving false information to members here? If you would just read any of the recommended articles, you could answer you're own question of why your fish are currently not showing any signs of ich. Just do us all a favor and stop posting/posing that you have all of this great first hand experience with "ich-eating" cleaner shrimp / wrasses.


Like the others have said, they don't eat ich. They will benefit the fish by cleaning other parasites off of them, which in turn, will allow them to put more effort in fighting off the ich. But to repeatedly state that you have first hand experience that is otherwise "unexplainable" results, is just wrong and ridiculous.

[morty]

we take one step forward and 50 back didn't you post the article that said they controlled ich? and it seems when I make a post that goes out the window that we have found now that one person from a reputable fish store has posted they do as well as the article that you have posted as well as mine?

I am open to any one who can enplane what is going on then when my fish is ich free and it has only been since i have added my cleaner I am not trying to argue and more i am just wondering what is the cleaner doing that is killing the ich/removing it or is my fish simply feeling better as other things are being removed from it so that it is losing ich i dont want to argue i just want to know whats going on?

I know you're not trying to be argumentative. You saw a cleaner wrasse trying to help an infested fish, and later the fish got better. I would've thought the same thing as you. But so would have fish biologists, who looked into it and then found that cleaner wrasses are not a significant means to control marine ich. Can't say for sure, but what may be the case is that at about the same time that you became concerned about the parasite and went and purchased a cleaner wrasse, you have good enough water quality that the fish were able to fight the ich off on their own and make it seem like the wrasse was responsible for the cure. (And again, the wrasse may be able to remove tomites that have not yet fully embedded, which would have helped too.)

[mtfatwork]

I think at this point there is no longer anything constructive to post, so it is probably just time to lock this thing down.