Toxic Zoas???

[BiochemRobyn]

I was sitting in one of my toxicology classes the other day, and lo and behold my professor brings up the subject of palythoa! Interestingly enough, they can secrete one of the most toxic substances known to man and are being tested for use in cancer treatment.

When I talked to her about owning some palythoa myself, she was astonished. However, what was really amazing to her was how commercially-bought zoanthids, palythoas, and similar toxic corals don't come with warnings.

I tried to do some more reading into the compound, and it looks like not all zoanthids are extremely toxic. However, let's just face it, the studies haven't been done on all these different species.

If anyone was interested, here's some more information:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158663

http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins.htm

I talked to someone the other day who had an allergic reaction (or so he said) after fragging a colony that he had to be rushed to the hospital. So my question that I pose to everyone else is this:
Has anyone had any negative experiences after touching zoas or similar coral?
:goldfish:

[BiochemRobyn]

By the way, here's one more interesting link:
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

[Zekester]

Wow thats crazy stuff!!! Thanks Robyn

[Chad Vossen]

anthony calfo talks about his experience of zoanthid toxins in his coral propagation book. he says he whiped his face with a towel which he used on the zoanthids and soon experienced a numb, metalic taste in his mouth.

[Chad Vossen]

and i thought the toxins produced by pufferfish was the "most toxic natural substance".
i guess people that have puffers in their zoanthid dominated tanks have a deathwish????

[BiochemRobyn]

and i thought the toxins produced by pufferfish was the "most toxic natural substance".
i guess people that have puffers in their zoanthid dominated tanks have a deathwish????

LOL... probably.... who knew that reefkeeping was a form of suicide. I thought it was only a form of bankruptcy.

[mtfatwork]

I had read a thread a long time ago written by someone who was fragging some zoanthids and one of them squirted in his eye. by that evening he was in the hospital, and no one believed that it could be palytoxins until a doctor on rotation happened to come in during rounds, who was also a fellow reefer. He was lucky, they said he could have lost his eye. Those were some nasty pics. You do have to use a certain ammount of care when fragging zoanthids because of this toxin. This is also the reason it is so important to run carbon in a zoanthid dominant system

[BiochemRobyn]

I don't want to sound morbid, but do you know where I could find those pictures? Was that on reefcentral or thereeftank?

[Chad Vossen]

i frag my zoanthids underwater. i also read about someone gettin squirted in the eye, but i didnt see the photos.

[mtfatwork]

to be honest with you, I dont remember where they were, there are so many sights out there...

[Fish'InMN]

I always frag with at least one layer of nitrile gloves as well as eye protection in the form of shop glasses (for woodworking). Always be careful!

[MNGold15]

I had read a thread a long time ago written by someone who was fragging some zoanthids and one of them squirted in his eye. by that evening he was in the hospital, and no one believed that it could be palytoxins until a doctor on rotation happened to come in during rounds, who was also a fellow reefer. He was lucky, they said he could have lost his eye. Those were some nasty pics. You do have to use a certain ammount of care when fragging zoanthids because of this toxin. This is also the reason it is so important to run carbon in a zoanthid dominant system

I had a very close run in like this. I was fragging a few and I cut one and it almost got me in the face. squirted very close by. I learned my lesson there.

[John_Salmon]

Yea, I had read this a long time ago too. I do remember reading that it is the 5th most deadly poison to man kind. I am pretty sure that they are the most toxic substance that we deal with in the saltwater hobby. Does anyone have the list of the top 10 most deadlyist poisons to mankind???

Not less than a week ago i went over with my wife what would happen if one of our boys was messing around with shooms and zoos in our tank. It is very important and would be a good time for all to go over with their familys the "what if" in case something would happen.

[Irenicus]

Wow... Thanks for sharing this Robyn.

[wes]

HOLY CRAP! This and that post on TRT's tcmas. I guess it makes me feel more confidant in getting a lionfish. :-)

[John_Salmon]

here a link to a top 10;

http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~cmallery/150/special/poisons.htm

I now understand why it was that i couldn't find polytoxin on the top ten list. tetrodotoxin(#5), the poison from the tetro family of pufferfish is in the neurotoxic family of the non-protein as is the palytoxin. Since people eat the puffer fish as a delicacy they just put that name on the top of the list instead of leaving it more general with neurotoxins.

[BiochemRobyn]

I am still trying to get my sister (who is in medical school) to find some pictures for us... Hopefully we may be able to see how bad this stuff really is...

[REEFSTOCK]

I've had problems with my hands and a strange zapping feeling up my arm after working with zoanthids. But, that could be psyco... psyco... well psyco something amatic :) or could be from resting my arms on the tanks so long. or or. Still, I anecdotally attribute it to zoanthid cutting.

[Volitan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palytoxin

[Turf]

Here is a good link for you on RC... if you don't want to read the whole thing just read the first post it sums it up and the rest is nonsences. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083843&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[Sizzlersonthebrain]

just dont eat them and you should be fine...

[Kenny Graham]

:bow: Thanks Robyn - Mary & everyone. I had planned of doing a whole small nano of them. Now I have to rethink the tank.

[BiochemRobyn]

:bow: Thanks Robyn - Mary & everyone. I had planned of doing a whole small nano of them. Now I have to rethink the tank.

LOL.... trying to 'live on the edge', eh?

I honestly think that you'd be probably be just fine if you did. It seems that the concensus is that they are more toxic when they are trying to sexually reproduce. However, it seems difficult to determine when they are 'sextual' and there is a threat even when they aren't.

Some precautions to think about would be to always wear heavy-duty gloves when you put your hand in the tank. If you ever want to frag the zoo's, it would be a great idea to wear gloves, goggles (such as lab goggles), and do all of the fragging in a seperate working area that can be easily cleaned after use. Also, having a seperate water container where you frag the zoo's would keep the rest of the organisms in your tank away from the toxins.

I hope this helps!

[loos15]

I've had problems with my hands and a strange zapping feeling up my arm after working with zoanthids. But, that could be psyco... psyco... well psyco something amatic :) or could be from resting my arms on the tanks so long. or or. Still, I anecdotally attribute it to zoanthid cutting.

I finished with working with my zoos earlier today...theres was a strange burning sensation in hand for 2 hours....its gone now..but im scared >_<

[BiochemRobyn]

I finished with working with my zoos earlier today...theres was a strange burning sensation in hand for 2 hours....its gone now..but im scared >_<

Not good. You don't have any cuts on your arms do you? Even paper cuts could be dangerous from what I have read.

If it starts up again or looks inflammed, I'd definitely go in to an urgent care clinic.

I hope you feel better!

[REEFSTOCK]

I finished with working with my zoos earlier today...theres was a strange burning sensation in hand for 2 hours....its gone now..but im scared >_<


As long as it is on the hand you hold the ping pong paddle with... keep doing things as usual.

:gay1:

[Angel~Eyes]

Hope you are ok now.

[mtfatwork]

kenny, you would be fine with a zoanthid tank. The palytoxin does get diluted in the water, so the chances of getting hurt are very slim. Most folks who do end up getting poisoned do so while fragging. As long as you use proper precautions like gloves and safety glasses when fragging you will be fine. I try to frag underwater as well, because then they cant squirt me, and if the toxin shoots out, it is diluted in at least a gallon of water, which, I figure should make it alot less potent. I have never had an issue, and I have fragged tons of zoanthids.

[TimmyG]

so i was just handling a rock full of them that I just got from the LFstore. they never said anything about it being toxic! that was a few days ago so I am guessing that I'll be ok.

can they kill fish or anemones or other things like mushrooms?

[mtfatwork]

usually they only give off high ammounts of toxins when they are messed wth. If you smush one in the tank you will see a small cloud, that is what you are watching out for. Just run carbon and it will be fine.

[epidemic]

I remember reqding about palytoxin before. It has like a 130 carbon bakebone with something like 40 of them being chiral. Thats pretty impressive for a bio molecule

[BiochemRobyn]

Good memory! Very close. According to wickipedia has 130 C's and 71 stereoisomers- but that would be less chiral carbons. I'm too lazy to count right now so I'll just say that you're right :biggrin:

[droinablunt]

I remember reqding about palytoxin before. It has like a 130 carbon bakebone with something like 40 of them being chiral. Thats pretty impressive for a bio molecule

Good memory! Very close. According to wickipedia has 130 C's and 71 stereoisomers- but that would be less chiral carbons. I'm too lazy to count right now so I'll just say that you're right :biggrin:

English please.

[storrisch]

English please.

Don't eat them.

[hamdogg08]

I'm surprised that kids now days don't lick them to have their fun, much like toad licking!