Best Refugium Life?

[gogregerson]

When comparing Macro Algae to Xenia, which is the more efficient refugium animal/plant? Which absorbs or removes more nutrients from the tank water? Macro Algae uses nutrients to grow and you can then "export" those nutrients by trimming/removing algae. I've been told xenia lowers nitrates and maybe even phosphates but how? and do you have to "weed" out the xenia to export the nutrients?

[coralreefer]

An aiptasia filter may be the best for particulates if set up right.

[Jim E.]

A friend in Pennsylvania has taken to cultivating Aiptasia in a separate tank for that purpose, & reports fabulous results after a year or so. I believe forums such as Marine Depot or WetWebMedia have threads to follow -- sorry, but I haven't taken time to look 'em up.

Frankly, that much Aiptasia (even in close proximity to my display) would scare the s*** out of me, so I just use Chaeto on reverse photo. (Caulerpa going sexual as a sequella to bad husbandy is another hang-up of mine.)

Would pods & other tiny life such as brittle stars, etc., find Xenia to be as hospitable as macro? I use my refugium as a pod factory, as well as nutrient export & pH stabilization.

The use of Xenia sp. is fascinating -- but wouldn't its toxins be deadly if something were to wipe it out...?

[hamdogg08]

There was a video on putting aptasia in a sump on some web page with a bunch of reef vids on it...wish I remember what it was called

The guy ended up putting a UV steralizer on the return line.

It might be reefvideos.com

[coralreefer]

Frankly, that much Aiptasia (even in close proximity to my display) would scare the s*** out of me, so I just use Chaeto on reverse photo. (Caulerpa going sexual as a sequella to bad husbandy is another hang-up of mine.)
Yeah you would either want a UV sterilizer after the aiptasia filter and/or something in your display that would eat any that enter.

[wes]

I like macros because for some reason I believe that they use less of the things corals need and they are, as stated, easy to trim and they host pods. They also seem to grow at a faster rate than xenia. Basically what you're trying to do is get those phosphates bound into the matter of whatever is in your sump, instead of in algaes in your display.

I would like to someday setup another small part of my fuge for xenia with rubble rock so I can give it away as I prune it. I've heard xenia can use up iodine, but I've never tested it.

by the way, how's that macro you got from wolmutt growing? Please let me know when you're getting around to pruning it.

[David Grigor]

I've definately heard accounts of people using xenia, but following with the logic of actually export it out of the system, I just don't think ( no proof just hunch ) that you just can't grow xenia fast enough. Macro algae once going can be harvested in much larger quantities.


BTW: I really love the red macro. The new growth curls like the flames on a hot rod when it's growing.

[Turf]

Just to play devil advocate... could much of the algae growth be attributed to photosynthesis, more so then in Xenia?

Edit: I really have no clue just throwing out an idea.... I'd still be scared of it spreading to my main system

As far as Xenia using Iodine/Iodide it is very likely as most of the soft corals from my reading do. Which is why I'm going to dose some when I move my shrimp to my new tank.

[mattb]

Glen, a couple of thoughts...

Between xenia and macro, I'd give macro a slight advantage... But whether this means anything I doubt it. Both zoox and chlorophil were 'designed' to be diurnal. However, both organisms will/may have different growth rates, which = different growth rates which = different uptake of N and P. By the way, all living organisms need N and P to survive. Now if you would have included microalgae ala ATS, I would have clearly ruled in favor of the micro algae being the most productive of the bunch by a landslide.

[Taklu]

I have a fuge with chaeto & the red macro & I turned it also into a aiptasia farm...my tank looks a lot better compared to when I had hair algae issues. An aiptasia occaisionally finds it to the display but the peppermint takes care of it in a day or two.
Im not a big fan of xenia but I do have an island....may give it away soon to make room. :)

[mattb]

Whether its Iodine or whatever trace element, little is understood. In a system with a good amount ( a scentific amount I know) of micro/macro algae, both iron and Iodine will be consumed (to what extent ?) as a given due to their biological demand, they would neeeld to be supplemented.

[wes]

I think a hair algae 'fuge would be best for fast export. I guess that's pretty much like one of those algae turf scrubbers. other than that, I use chaeto, but am gradually replacing it with the red macro (is it everyone's new favorite??)

[mattb]

Any microalgae will result in the fastest export relative to anything else, other than bacteria...

[wolmutt]

I've found that the red olgo need fast and tumolutouls water movement or it dies off. Has anyone else ovserved this in their tanks? It seems to lose it s read color turning green, and then breaking down. I have added powerheadds to my fuge to keep it tumbling.

[wes]

I've found that the red olgo need fast and tumolutouls water movement or it dies off. Has anyone else ovserved this in their tanks? It seems to lose it s read color turning green, and then breaking down. I have added powerheadds to my fuge to keep it tumbling.

I really hope that stuff grows well... I want a chunk of it at some point, it's so cool.

[gogregerson]

The Ogo I got from you seems to be growing pretty good in my tank.

I grow lots of both Xenia and macro algaes in my system. I have pink pompom Xenia growing on the back glass panel of my display and silver branching in my refugium. I've seen Xenia advertised as nutrient controlling but it would seem like you'd really need to be weeding it out pretty regularly to do you any good and they really don't grow that fast.

[mattb]

Exactly, export doesn't happen unless you remove the livestock from the system.

[wes]

Exactly, export doesn't happen unless you remove the livestock from the system.

yeah, but it's still sequestered and thus unavailable to other organisms. So really, unless it's dying and releasing it back into the system, there's no real need to yank any out until it's impeding new growth or dying off.

[Chad Vossen]

when i redo my refuge, i will include 3+ peppermint shrimp and many blue legged hermit crabs. reason: blue legged hermits are prolific little crabs! every night that i run my larva snagger, i end up with a batch of hermit crabs... my peppermint shrimp are not nearly as prolific (unless i had 10 or more, then i guess they would be better than hermits) but they have much larger batches at a time.

at night my corals have full polyp extension, and with the spawning of the shrimp and crabs down in the fuge (plus my cleaner shrimp pair in the display), my corals will get fed nightly.

for algae, i like to stick with chaeto because its easier. i have tried other macro algaes and didnt like the results. i guess you could always grow xenia along side the chaeto too. but in my tank, the xenia wont grow... it survives but doesnt grow...

[wes]

when i redo my refuge, i will include 3+ peppermint shrimp and many blue legged hermit crabs. reason: blue legged hermits are prolific little crabs! every night that i run my larva snagger, i end up with a batch of hermit crabs... my peppermint shrimp are not nearly as prolific (unless i had 10 or more, then i guess they would be better than hermits) but they have much larger batches at a time.

at night my corals have full polyp extension, and with the spawning of the shrimp and crabs down in the fuge (plus my cleaner shrimp pair in the display), my corals will get fed nightly.

for algae, i like to stick with chaeto because its easier. i have tried other macro algaes and didnt like the results. i guess you could always grow xenia along side the chaeto too. but in my tank, the xenia wont grow... it survives but doesnt grow...

I don't like any sort of predators in a fuge-- I'd rather try to foster whatever microfauna I can back there. Though peppermints do spawn quite a bit, they're constantly grazing on other things that would've made it into the display. If you intentionally feed them, it might be better, but you don't get nearly as much effiency when you add a trophic level. You lose something like 90% through each level. Hermits, being more opportunistic, might fare better as larval producers. If they're cleaning and spawning and not decimating the 'pods and such, then that sounds like a good idea.

[mattb]

yeah, but it's still sequestered and thus unavailable to other organisms. So really, unless it's dying and releasing it back into the system, there's no real need to yank any out until it's impeding new growth or dying off.

Do you know what's in mucous or in any of the compounds they release? A loaded question, I doubt anyone does. There's bound to be a fair amount of organic carbon, but could be compounds loaded with N or P as well.

[morty]

No one has mentioned placing a bunch of LR in the sump as a substrate for featherduster colonization i.e. particulate filtration. Would this be like an aiptasia filter, and if so, be more preferable? Or, would this go against creating a spawning environment for crustaceans, because the featherdusters (or aiptasia) would filter out the planktonic stuff you're hoping reaches your corals?

[mattb]

I don't think it'd work against anything.... I think it'd create some diversity that may help some of the very organisms you listed... Featherdusters would filter some planktonic organisms, would it be enough to limit coral growth, probably not.

[hypertech]

For my frag system, I'm planning on having lots of rock in the sump for that and a seperate fuge area with no rock also. I'm trying to make it a low maintenance system so the more I can do by natural processes the better.

[mattb]

In a liverock based refugia, I do like Tyree does and make it dark (cryptic), the sponges that develop will remove more organics than the featherdusters would....

[hypertech]

How would you do that - paint the dividers and just put a dark lid on it?

[mattb]

Yup, though tyree uses a partitioned area of the display. He doesn't use protein skimmers... The downside though is that to make a dent in the organics, you need a lot of sponges and a good sized area to do this. I think he recommends 50/50 area for each...

[hypertech]

Didn't Stan try this and decide to scrap it?

[mattb]

No idea....

[ksarauer]

This thread is far beyond me...

In regards to using live rock in the sump to grow sponges and feather dusters.

I was using a square tank with ~40 gallons of water full of live rock as a sump for the last year or so. (the display is a 75 gallon, with ~25 lbs of LR.)

Yesterday I moved from the ~40 gallon sump to a 55 gallon sump, what was the suprising is there was an unbelievable amount of sponges on the LR, some rocks completely covered with red, orange, yellow, and white sponge. I don't recall any blue, green, or purple sponges in the sump, which is the color most dominate in the display. BTW, I have no idea if the color of the sponges matter! There were a large amount of feather dusters on the LR also. What was suprising is the lower 5" of rock in the sump has absolutely no growth of anything on it. The line of growth vs. no growth was pretty defined.

There was a large amount of deterus in the sump (good thick layer on the bottom of the tank), and about 500 gph flow through the sump. There is no sand or gravel in the sump, it's BB.

Could the deterus have contributed to the no growth in the sump? Would macro algae of some sort helped out? If using LR in a sump, is there a recommended amount of flow?

[twincitiesreefer]

a filter sock would have worked

[wes]

Do you know what's in mucous or in any of the compounds they release? A loaded question, I doubt anyone does. There's bound to be a fair amount of organic carbon, but could be compounds loaded with N or P as well.

If capman were here, he'd be able to be a bit more definitive about that... but I don't think either of us really can. I've never noticed a mucus from chaeto, though other macros seem to release some (the new macro I got from glen, for instance, has a slime to it, but I still love it). Another plus for chaeto over others, I guess. I like the cryptic idea, (aren't part of the SWE sumps based on this?) but I haven't got the space to do it well enough. I do have a ton of LR in the first baffle that I'm sure will develop sponges and more featherdusters over time.

[mattb]

I was talking Xenia, not macro. The slime and organic compounds that Xenia /softies release would be much greater than what the macro would do.....