Spring is here, did sand come with it?

[REEFSTOCK]

Anyone see good sand at any of the HW stores yet?

[zryder]

ooo.... if you do, i would like to know as well.
if i have 2" in my 6x18", how much would i need to have 6" in my 6'x2"?

[hypertech]

You would need 4x as much as you have in your 6'x18".

[zryder]

well... i hope someone finds some for cheap then.

[thegrimreefer]

What's the consensus on using chicken feed aragonite?

[REEFSTOCK]

We are looking for sand to make plugs. How fine is that stuff, Mr. Grim?

[thegrimreefer]

I don't know. Small enough for a chicken to swallow.
I was more wondering if anyone had any feedback regarding purity, or anything.
I'm going to need 3,000 - 4,000 cubic inches of the stuff, so I'm looking for a "deal"... but one that won't poison the tank, ideally :)

[Turf]

the chicken feed works well... I was just at a work shop in STL and one of the frag farmers there uses it all the time... there was a certain type of cement mix he used but I can't remember which. He said that you would obviously want to rince it first but the consistency is better and the coral growth over the time is much faster then with many other types of base.

[Turf]

Speaking of sand... anyone sell southdown up here or know where someone can get their hands on some?

[wkjames]

Has anyone tried this (Not this specific brand, but the local variety of the same) for substrate? http://www.eggcartons.com/item677.htm
I know they sell this locally in every farm supply and feed store. Is it good or bad?

I have looked for the Pavestone sand, and had no luck finding any at the Home Depot in Fridley, or Brooklyn Center. I also checked the Menards in Fridley, and the Fleet Farm in Brooklyn Park. The HD people say they carry pulverized limestone from Anchor Block company. Suppose it's the same?

[sea monkey]

Speaking of sand... anyone sell southdown up here or know where someone can get their hands on some?

that product doesn't exist anymore . the company that supplied them went out of business years ago.

[sea monkey]

What's the consensus on using chicken feed aragonite?

does anyone know if the chicken feed lime has any standards or is whatever comes out of the mine ok to be used for this ? Because it is mined from a variety of places I'm guessing each site has a unique impurity level . this is not the same as the calcium carbonate sand that is formed from participation in the ocean , it is mined from large limestone deposits.

I not saying don't use it or anything but i would do my research first. might want to start buy getting a data sheet
http://misslime.stl.quilogy.net//documents/ContentDocuments/Feed%20Grade%20F1.pdf
http://www.mississippilime.com/products/limestone/feedgradelimestone

30 PPM Phosphorus pentoxide might be a issue . certainly makes me want to ask more questions : )

like what the hell is Phosphorus pentoxide and how much is ok .
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p4116.htm

DANGER! CORROSIVE. CAUSES BURNS TO ANY AREA OF CONTACT. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. FUMES CAUSE IRRITATION TO EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. WATER REACTIVE. REACTS VIOLENTLY WITH WATER TO GENERATE HEAT AND PHOSPHORIC ACID.

doesn't sound to good : ( who knows maybe it isn't as bad as it sounds.


There are a ton of good DIY things out there , we just need to be careful not to be reckless and use anything that on the surface sounds like it might be a good idea.

[sea monkey]

too bad they dont make this product in a larger size : (
http://www.mississippilime.com/products/precipitatedcalciumcarbonatepcc/vitacalpcc

[wkjames]

does anyone know if the chicken feed lime has any standards or is whatever comes out of the mine ok to be used for this ? Because it is mined from a variety of places I'm guessing each site has a unique impurity level . this is not the same as the calcium carbonate sand that is formed from participation in the ocean , it is mined from large limestone deposits.

I not saying don't use it or anything but i would do my research first. might want to start buy getting a data sheet
http://misslime.stl.quilogy.net//documents/ContentDocuments/Feed%20Grade%20F1.pdf
http://www.mississippilime.com/products/limestone/feedgradelimestone

30 PPM Phosphorus pentoxide might be a issue . certainly makes me want to ask more questions : )

like what the hell is Phosphorus pentoxide and how much is ok .
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p4116.htm



doesn't sound to good : ( who knows maybe it isn't as bad as it sounds.


There are a ton of good DIY things out there , we just need to be careful not to be reckless and use anything that on the surface sounds like it might be a good idea.

On the note of letting others dive in, to test the water (or sand in this case):

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=676401

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=889622&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=14931&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=152639&highlight=

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic65344-5-1.aspx#bm65355

http://www.coralforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25861


I am convinced it it safe, I plan to buy 350# or so as soon as I can find it.

[sea monkey]

let us know how it works out . would be very cool to see it be the new reef sand because it is prolly like 10 cents a pound .

My only warning with other peoples experiences is you need to be aware people often irrationally defend them . which means they may say they used it and say it worked perfectly but neglect to mention the numerous algae outbreaks they had or how they use a phosphate remover religiously. They could also have a traumatic event that happens 9 months down the line from a toxic build up of impurities but they don't relate it to this because they added it 9 months ago and have not any issues until now.

success is also defined in different ways . one person might claim success simply because it didn't kill anything , where someone else's success is more detailed.

This is only offered as a warning, I'm not saying it is bad to use. If i were going to use chicken feed as a substrate i would at the minimum find the specific brand i intended to use and get the data sheet from that company and evaluate it on that bases. other peoples successes could very well be based off a different brand from a different mine where the impurities are entirely different.

[wkjames]

too bad they dont make this product in a larger size : (
http://www.mississippilime.com/products/precipitatedcalciumcarbonatepcc/vitacalpcc

Harcros Chemicals, Inc
584 N Fairview Ave
St. Paul, MN, 55104
Office Phone:651-647-0149

Steve Ostrowski is the sales rep I spoke to. He said he'd be happy to help any club members who needed it.

It comes in 50# bags, and is the consistency of sand. $0.32 per pound based on an initial order of 350# they offer delivery for orders over $300, with a delivery fee of $100
$0.65 per pound for single bags

[REEFSTOCK]

We would use the lime as sand?

[sea monkey]

limestone is calcium carbonate. the difference is it is mined out of the earth and has whatever impurities that happen to be in that lime deposit. aragonite sand is formed from precipitation of calcium and carbonate in the ocean.

the chicken feed does have some type of quality standards, obviously based of being appropriate for feeding chickens. The 30 PPM Phosphorus pentoxide sounds bad but it may be locked up in the substrate and very little of it may be released. It could also be a continual source of phosphate as it is slowly released. At minimum it is worth being aware of if you do have algae problems down the road and can't figure out what the source is.

[wkjames]

We would use the lime as sand?
Limestone= Calcium Carbonate at varying levels of purity
Lime (garden lime) = Calcium oxide 41%, Magnesium Oxide 30%

I can find no reference for pulverized limestone to be used as a diet supplement for chickens. Crushed oyster shells are frequently used for chickens. These are also Calcium Carbonate.

[wkjames]

On the note of letting others dive in, to test the water (or sand in this case):

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=676401

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=889622&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=14931&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=152639&highlight=

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic65344-5-1.aspx#bm65355

http://www.coralforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25861


I am convinced it it safe, I plan to buy 350# or so as soon as I can find it.

O.k. After much research...
1) Pavestone has a number of mines from which they obtain the limestone mentioned in the previously quoted posts.
2) Pavestone does not currently supply the Home Depots, Lowes, Menards, or Fleet Farms (or any other store in the area for that matter) in this area.
3) "in this area" includes Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin North and South Dakota as well as Minnesota.
4) #2 may change
5) Anchor Block supplied it to HD "in this area" This is a similar, but untested substitute to my ability to determine.

The purity level of what is available through Mississippi Lime Co. is probably the highest in the industry, and is my current plan for substrate beyond the Live Sand I'm expecting from Redwinger when he gets to that stage with his tank.

[sea monkey]

Limestone= Calcium Carbonate at varying levels of purity
Lime (garden lime) = Calcium oxide 41%, Magnesium Oxide 30%

I can find no reference for pulverized limestone to be used as a diet supplement for chickens. Crushed oyster shells are frequently used for chickens. These are also Calcium Carbonate.

this is the feed grade that ML has
http://www.mississippilime.com/products/limestone/feedgradelimestone

looks like it might be the highest grade of ground limestone they make. BTW They have been pretty helpful when i have called them before , they might be able to suggest something for this application.

[tico mike]

What about the limestone around here? I'm pretty sure I've got access to a lot of "sandrock" that could be crushed into sand. How do you get the analysis then? I guess I know a couple labs that could test for it, but not worth the testing dollars unless you were a die hard DYI'er.

[sea monkey]

O.k. After much research...
1) Pavestone has a number of mines from which they obtain the limestone mentioned in the previously quoted posts.
2) Pavestone does not currently supply the Home Depots, Lowes, Menards, or Fleet Farms (or any other store in the area for that matter) in this area.
3) "in this area" includes Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin North and South Dakota as well as Minnesota.
4) #2 may change
5) Anchor Block supplied it to HD "in this area" This is a similar, but untested substitute to my ability to determine.

The purity level of what is available through Mississippi Lime Co. is probably the highest in the industry, and is my current plan for substrate beyond the Live Sand I'm expecting from Redwinger when he gets to that stage with his tank.


did you end up using this ? Customer asked me about it today, made me think about this thread.

[wkjames]

Ryan,
Last summer I ended up being able to get a load of Southdown from the guy with a garage full of it. Getting that negated my need to arrange a group buy from Mississippi Lime. You and I had spoken about the Mississippi Lime way back when. You get other stuff from them, right? I seem to recall some willingness to arrange for shipping if you were pre-paid and didn't have to store it. That was a long time ago, and I don't know how you feel about it now.

IIRC from my discussions with them back at that time, they said all of the Calcium Carbonate products they sell are from the same place, and have the same makeup. It is just a matter of how finely it is pulverized. It sounds like the animal feed products they sell would be the right grain size for use as substrate, and they are just as clean and safe as the food grade.

Someone else recently asked me about this thread. Maybe there is interest in arranging a group buy?
If someone is getting ready to set up a DSB in a big tank, it is a HUGE cost savings to do the Mississippi Lime vs. crushed coral at the LFS.