peppermint shrimp larva round two!

[Chad Vossen]

round one can be seen here: http://www.tcmas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6697

this time, i moved 100% of the larva into the new tank with out any losses. i used 5G water from the parent tank and am now dripping new water into the larva tank. i had a small number of brine shrimp ready, when i get home at noon there should be a ton more brine shrimp ready to be fed. its clear as night and day how much stronger this batch is, because, man these guys can swim fast! doesn't take them long to make their way from one end of the tank to the other.

well, here are some pictures of the larva still in the larva catcher. ill have more pictures up later today.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimplarva.png
this second picture you can see clearly what they look like, at least some of them. most of them are in that blob of a dog pile.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/104_8592.png

[Turf]

very cool

[Turf]

How is it that they find their way up that little hole in your catched... just seems like an odd design so what am I missing?
It'd actually be nice having one of those so i can collect fishfood at night!

[Chad Vossen]

How is it that they find their way up that little hole in your catched... just seems like an odd design so what am I missing?
It'd actually be nice having one of those so i can collect fishfood at night!

the newborn shrimp are HIGHLY attracted to light (just like clownfish larva). i have a LED light right outside the tank next to the opening, and the air lift creates a flow that sucks the larva into the collection area. the flow is strong enough that they cant escape from the trap.

here are two more pictures, hopefully you'll get a better idea how i have it set up.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/104_8606.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/104_8608.jpg

the LED flashlight i got from radioshack, i broke the plastic dome off of it, and put masking tape over the light so it isnt so bright. the shrimp larva go straight towards this light the moment they are born.

this whole setup will work for clownfish too. i just cant wait till my pair start spawning.

[Turf]

very cool, keep us posted

[Chad Vossen]

all the shrimp have had stocked eyes now for two or three days. im watching closely every day to see any more changes. i think the next molt will give them another pair of legs, but im not 100% sure yet. i tried taking pictures, unbelievable how difficult the task is without my old camera... my parents camera doesn't do the job at all. i will keep at the picture taking in hopes of getting one with details.

[wes]

very cool. I'm uber stoked about your stock! It's amazing how hard it is compared to fresh stuff that breeds without so much as your permission...

[BiochemRobyn]

What % of them are still alive? Are you feeding them rotifers?

[Chad Vossen]

i would have to estimate about 75% of them have survived since the hatch. the first night most of the "weaklings" died off, but i havnt noticed any die offs since. i can expect another die off when they grow their "spear legs", as this seems to be the most difficult molting. after they have their spear legs, all i need to do is keep them fed, and just wait it out.

i think i could estimate at least 50 larva in my tank. no way im going to bother counting them all, not until they are larger.

twice a day i add newly hatched brine shrimp. once the brine shrimp molt into their next stage, they are useless because they are to big to be eaten. after my peppermint shrimp are 2 weeks old, they can handle the 2-3 day old brine shrimp. unfortunately my phytoplankton crashed and i currently have no food to gut load my brine shrimp with, so if anyone thats growing phyto can help me out, send me a PM! ill pay shipping!

[tag]

you want some shrimp recipes?:cool:

[Chad Vossen]

very cool. I'm uber stoked about your stock! It's amazing how hard it is compared to fresh stuff that breeds without so much as your permission...

well, my shrimp sure don't wait for permission before breeding, all of my saltwater shrimp (and some freshwater shrimp) have a tail full of eggs. its the raising of the larva that is uber hard compared to freshwater. i knew what you meant, but i thought i'd pick on ya.


you want some shrimp recipes?:cool:

Y'know, i would love some recipes. though i dont want to hijack my own thread, so please start up a new thread in the off topic area, or send me a pm! thank you. :beerchug:

[wes]

yes, yes, shrimp are on the easier side, but still, you provided a good home for them. in freshwater livebearers really only need a puddle that's not entirely full of bleach.

[oltemative]

If you are very careful in your observations you'll notice that they should molt every 2 days for the first 10 days or so.

Their most difficult molt is the one that brings them into metamorphosis. I have had success with only one individual. I had about 10 that were all at the same stage and only one specimen made it to meta.

It is AMAZING to see the size/shape change that happens during meta. The last stage before meta they still look little like the adults, then POOF!! They look like small 3/4"(body) adults.

Good luck.

BTW, the careful observation/turkeybaster/flashlight method of collection is also quite effective and inexpensive. :gay1:

[Chad Vossen]

If you are very careful in your observations you'll notice that they should molt every 2 days for the first 10 days or so.

Their most difficult molt is the one that brings them into metamorphosis. I have had success with only one individual. I had about 10 that were all at the same stage and only one specimen made it to meta.

It is AMAZING to see the size/shape change that happens during meta. The last stage before meta they still look little like the adults, then POOF!! They look like small 3/4"(body) adults.

Good luck.

BTW, the careful observation/turkeybaster/flashlight method of collection is also quite effective and inexpensive. :gay1:

would you believe i have not been able to find a turkey baster that would work for my application anywhere? though i admit i havnt looked very hard, i have not seen any. also, my shrimp light to release their babies on nights that i have to work the next morning, so i cant stay up late checking the tank.

what foods did you use throughout the growth of your shrimp?

i have noticed that they do look "different" but i cant figure out what has changed about them. they just simply look bigger today.

i guess the final molt would be very difficult, all my sources for info have stated this to be a big issue. i will be happy just to make it that far though.

[Chad Vossen]

yes, yes, shrimp are on the easier side, but still, you provided a good home for them. in freshwater livebearers really only need a puddle that's not entirely full of bleach.

haha, your very right about that. livebearers are always willing to mate.
in my planted tank, all my adult tetras will spawn in the mornings or after water changes.

[oltemative]

A mix... sometimes I VERY painstakingly fed thawed frozen cyclops. I tried to keep a good population of baby brine shrimp(bbs), but it was difficult and they tend to foul the tank easily. Toward the end, I was using a freeze-dried plankton because it was cheap and I didn't have time to play with them for an hour per night to feed them.

It took MUCH longer than the 25-35 days that Kirkendoll, DIBS, MOFIB all suggest. More like 90+ days. I think the problem was a low temp. I have since raised my rearing tank to 86F, but I have had much lower survival rates. But again, due to time constraints, I have not been able to concentrate on feeding them.

Also, I did not use a Kresel. If you make one, I hear you will have much better success.

[hypertech]

would you believe i have not been able to find a turkey baster that would work for my application anywhere? though i admit i havnt looked very hard, i have not seen any.

I got mine from Wal-mart.

[oltemative]

would you believe i have not been able to find a turkey baster that would work for my application anywhere? though i admit i havnt looked very hard, i have not seen any.

I think I got mine at Cub.

[Chad Vossen]

I think I got mine at Cub.

I got mine from Wal-mart.


thank you, i havnt been to either for 2 years or more though, hehe. cash wise or target are where i go. as an alternative, i have been using pipettes for as long as i have had my reef, but the opening is to small for the baby peppermint shrimps. for the larva, i will need to purchase a turkey baster. yet another piece of equipment to add to the clutter :), thanks guys :biggthumpup:

[oltemative]

Well, If your collector is working, no need for the baster. Right?

Stage two for the shrimp should be noticeable in the tail. The z1 is how they hatch, z2 has the stalk eyes and 3 white-ish spots on the tail, z3 has 5 less prominent spots on the tail. z4 is noticeably bigger and the antennae develop, and if they are lucky, very small spear legs will appear. the next several stages they develop longer spear legs and more (and more developed) antennae.

[Chad Vossen]

Well, If your collector is working, no need for the baster. Right?

Stage two for the shrimp should be noticeable in the tail. The z1 is how they hatch, z2 has the stalk eyes and 3 white-ish spots on the tail, z3 has 5 less prominent spots on the tail. z4 is noticeably bigger and the antennae develop, and if they are lucky, very small spear legs will appear. the next several stages they develop longer spear legs and more (and more developed) antennae.

thank you for the info, i guess im still in the Z2 stages, though some of them have a white spot where their tail "hinges".

i can still use the baster for other things. for example, mysis shrimp almost don't fit into my pipette opening. and the pipettes don't have much power for blasting the live rock clean. the detritus kinda just laughs at me when i try squirting 3-4 ml of water at it. :biggrin:

[hypertech]

thank you, i havnt been to either for 2 years or more though, hehe. cash wise or target are where i go. as an alternative, i have been using pipettes for as long as i have had my reef, but the opening is to small for the baby peppermint shrimps. for the larva, i will need to purchase a turkey baster. yet another piece of equipment to add to the clutter :), thanks guys :biggthumpup:

I hate WalMart with a passion, but there I wasn't about to pay $8.99 for a fancy baster when a cheap piece of junk from walmart for $1.99 would do the trick.

I made a special trip, bought the baster and only the baster and haven't been back since.

They also sell cheap little sauce dishes that work well for thawing fish food.

[kerks01]

If you realy need a turkey baster I'm sure I have an extra one sitting around. Could get it to you sometime tomorrow...

Sue

[David Grigor]

Matt, you could have gotten two turkey basters for the same prices at the dollar store and keep your Walmart streak alive. I also get the plastic baby food containers 4 for a dollar that work well for thawing frozen. If gets nasty just throw it out.

[oltemative]

It's too bad that you're in St. Cloud. I'd love to come over and see your setup!

The other bit of advice I've gotten is to do lots of water changes. I have not found this to be useful with new ASW. However, I have taken to draining large amounts rearing tank water, then exchanging the same amount out of the parent tank. The LR in parent tank can work on the ammonia and dilute/filter the rest. The other advantage is that you only have one set of levels to mess with.

There are a couple of complications. 1. The RT is much warmer than the PT so there could be temp shock which I have found will kill large numbers of larvae. 2. It should be done often, ideally daily. (These guys are huge time-parasites) 3. You must devise some way of removing the water without sucking up too many larvae (especially the healthy ones). This is the easiest problem, just turn off the light, use a flashlight on one side and siphon the other side.

[Chad Vossen]

It's too bad that you're in St. Cloud. I'd love to come over and see your setup!

The other bit of advice I've gotten is to do lots of water changes. I have not found this to be useful with new ASW. However, I have taken to draining large amounts rearing tank water, then exchanging the same amount out of the parent tank. The LR in parent tank can work on the ammonia and dilute/filter the rest. The other advantage is that you only have one set of levels to mess with.

There are a couple of complications. 1. The RT is much warmer than the PT so there could be temp shock which I have found will kill large numbers of larvae. 2. It should be done often, ideally daily. (These guys are huge time-parasites) 3. You must devise some way of removing the water without sucking up too many larvae (especially the healthy ones). This is the easiest problem, just turn off the light, use a flashlight on one side and siphon the other side.

i actually live 10 miles south of kimbal, or 30 miles south of st. cloud. more people know where st. cloud is so i put that as my location.

i do water changes nearly daily. i use water from my reef tank and have it dripped into the larva tank through out the rest of the day. it takes a good 6 hours to drip 4-5 gallons. i use rigid air hose to syphon off the bottom and keep the end away from any shrimps that are swimming. if they are on the bottom, and look like their dieing, i suck them up too.

as far as coming over to see the setup, just shoot me a pm if your coming out this way. i will have pictures floating around some time soon of my "operation" to give y'all a virtual tour of my aquaculture facility (my bedroom). yea, still living at home, enjoying the free utilities/rent.

[Chad Vossen]

tonight i did some spot feeding with frozen cyclopeeze. didnt take long for nearly all my little shrimp to have a cyclop in their face, chewing away on it. i even observed two shrimp holding onto the same peice of food, drifting around the tank. they were not eating off it (that i could see), but just holding on to it.

this is really fun, everyone should give this a try :D

[Chad Vossen]

well, im having issues with my main reef, possible high alk + major bacterial bloom... i did a water change using water from my reef to replace water taken from the shrimp tank. i drained half the shrimp tank, then dripped the new (old reeftank water) into the shrimp tank. it took until the next day to fill the larva tank back up. i found a lot of dead shrimp, and VERY cloudy water by the time the larva tank was filled back up. right now (today), i cant even see 2 inches into the larva tank. i only see 3 larva, so im giving up on this round.

i will try again once my reef tank is back to normal. i truly do hate reef calcium by seachem... lol

[Chad Vossen]

things were not as bad as i thought. there were a several survivors still swimming strong. i fed them, and holy cow have they become aggressive towards food. must have been hungry!

anyways, i did another water change useing water from the reef tank. i had a ton of detritus at the bottom of the larva tank this time.

i took some pictures, some will give you an idea how cloudy the water is.

i have magnets taped to the inside of the tank to hold the black foam board in place, as i have magnets embedded in the foam board. you can see the tub above the tank with the air hose hanging down which is how to add new water to the larva tank.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/104_8751.jpg

the next two pictures show what my shrimp look like. it seems that due to the cloudy water, it was easier to focus on the shrimp which were at the surface of the water.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/Clipboard01.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/104_8755.jpg

[oltemative]

Due to the length of the spear legs it looks like z5. If they hatched 3/1/08 this would be about right. Nice job! :biggrin:

I found that they can be quite resilient in conditions you would suspect them to die, and also quite fragile in conditions where there seems to be no problem. :grr: Just continue what you're doing and don't get complacent or lazy with the work, that's when you will lose them for sure. It's work and that's why most people don't have success with this.

If the DIBS and MOFIB breeders are right you're 1/3 of the way there. :biggthumpup:

[Chad Vossen]

i didn't realize those were the spear legs. they look like feeding arms. from what i can see, in my cloudy water, it looks like they are using those really long arms to catch food. the long arms have red tips. the detailed artwork in my book (how to train and raise peppermint shrimp) looks nothing like my shrimp do right now.. but i havnt taken such a detailed look yet either.

today i fed them only cyclopeeze. i didnt prepare a batch of brine shrimp at all since i was at the MN zoo most of yesterday. i feed, wait an hour, then syphon the bottom. few hours later i feed again, wait an hour and syphon. im about to feed again before going to bed, but wont be able to syphon till 4pm tomorrow. o well, we'll have to see how they make it.

[oltemative]

Yep, those are the spear legs. They will get longer, the tip will get bigger and they will start to look more like paddles. The behavior of the shrimp with their spears will change too. When they first get them they don't move them in a manner that suggests that they are jointed. After the 3rd molt with the spears, they will start to use them to direct food toward their other legs which they will use to hold the food as they stuff their face.

At this point it will get more difficult to notice growth by looking at the legs. Start to look at the antennae. They will become more numerous and longer.

As for the illustrations in Kirkendoll's book... well, uh... I think that those are what they would look like if you squashed them under a microscope slide/cover and dyed them gray. I'm not big fan of illustrated shrimp. There's an article floating around about sexy shrimp breeding that has horrendous illustrations. Your shrimp look great, no worries!

I have a small batch of larvae brewing right now too. They hatched two days after yours and they still haven't gotten their spear legs! Of course, I haven't been feeding them as diligently as you and my wife is tired of all the mess in the bedroom (yikes!) so I'm kind of letting them go until we can move and I can have a fish/shrimp room. :nuts:

[oltemative]

Any updates on the shrimp? :poke:

[Chad Vossen]

they eat more than my fish do.. the water in the larva tank has cleared finally. i counted 28 shrimp, but estimate 30-35.

2 or 3 are missing a limb, and 2 are noticeably smaller than all the rest.

[Chad Vossen]

i found one that was missing an eye. this guy got fed to my clownfish.

i added 4 large micro brittle starfish to "co-culture" in the shrimp larva tank. i figured they would eat the uneaten food at the bottom, while reproducing themselves. i never see any of the shrimp larva towards the bottom so im not worried about the starfish eating my shrimp.

took some pictures today, some came out really good.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8810.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8813.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8816.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8817.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8812.jpg

[oltemative]

They look great. Now it's just a waiting game... 17 days down... 8 to 18 days (in theory) to go.

What's your water changing frequency?

[Chad Vossen]

They look great. Now it's just a waiting game... 17 days down... 8 to 18 days (in theory) to go.

What's your water changing frequency?

the water change is almost continuous, i fill a bucket above the shrimp tank and let it drip into the shrimp tank. when i syphon the detritus from the bottom, i usually drain a bunch of water too. all the while i have new (or old reef tank water) water dripping and refilling the tank. i try to keep the tank half filled.

today i tried selcon for the first time on freeze dried cyclop-eeze. i didnt like it, and neither did the shrimp. wow can they swim away fast. the shrimp are to big to eat newly hatched brine shrimp now, they try their best to get that twitching BBS into their mouth, but most of the time it escapes. my phyto culture revived itself two days ago, and is nice and green today so i added about 100ml of phyto into the larva tank to feed the brine shrimp. the plan is to let the pep shrimp eat whatever BBS they can, and let the surviving BBS grow a little and feed off the phyto.

this seems very easy, surprised more people havnt tried it. i cant claim success at all since they havnt settled yet.. im about half way there i guess.

[oltemative]

the shrimp are to big to eat newly hatched brine shrimp now, they try their best to get that twitching BBS into their mouth, but most of the time it escapes.

I noticed this too. You could find a food that will float, but is thick enough for them to grab below the surface of the water. i.e. flake won't work because it doesn't break the surface tension of the water at first, and then it sinks rapidly.


this seems very easy, surprised more people havnt tried it. i cant claim success at all since they havnt settled yet.. im about half way there i guess.

Don't count your shrimp until they've settled. ;) You might find that the first one to settle will eat the rest and you will end up with one like I did. :grr:

[Chad Vossen]

Don't count your shrimp until they've settled. ;) You might find that the first one to settle will eat the rest and you will end up with one like I did. :grr:[/QUOTE]

in that case i wont be so careful to syphon all the uneaten food on those last few days.

[Chad Vossen]

last night i set up the larva collector on the shrimp tank again and got a big load of newborn shrimp. i added these into my larva tank. most of the new shrimp larva survived just fine.

i was amazed at how much my older shrimp have grown.

anyways, i fed cyclopeeze again today and it seemed the shrimp were not quite as interested. im about to do a water change and see what that does for their appetite.

[oltemative]

They may be busy eating the new larvae. It's usually not an issue as there are so many of the new ones, but I don't think they are as nutritious as the cyclops.

It's a tough thing to get around, but I imagine that since they are constantly looking for food and the new larvae are constantly present they might be full by the time you get around to trying to feed them.

[Chad Vossen]

They may be busy eating the new larvae. It's usually not an issue as there are so many of the new ones, but I don't think they are as nutritious as the cyclops.

It's a tough thing to get around, but I imagine that since they are constantly looking for food and the new larvae are constantly present they might be full by the time you get around to trying to feed them.

"full"? i didnt think that word applied to these baby shrimp! hehe.

im thinking of trying sexy shrimp or flame shrimp. ill set up a 2nd 10 gal and raise another shrimps larva in that.

sexy shrimp can be raised on a mix of phyto, rotifers, and bbs. i personally think they can be raised on bbs alone, but on MOFIB, someone claimed the rotifers were needed. guess if i go this route i will have to experiment. i think their larva time is about half of the peppermints.

flame shrimp can be raised the same as the peppermints, but i think i have read a larva stage of about 90days or more. thats a lot of time to mess up. ill be starting school this summer and wonder if ill even have time to mess with the shrimp when i need to.

now that i have just wrote those two paragraphs, i think ill attempt the sexy shrimp first due to the shorter larva stage. ill think about buying up a pair if i can make it to the frag swap.

[oltemative]

"full"? i didnt think that word applied to these baby shrimp! hehe.

im thinking of trying sexy shrimp or flame shrimp. ill set up a 2nd 10 gal and raise another shrimps larva in that.

sexy shrimp can be raised on a mix of phyto, rotifers, and bbs. i personally think they can be raised on bbs alone, but on MOFIB, someone claimed the rotifers were needed. guess if i go this route i will have to experiment. i think their larva time is about half of the peppermints.

flame shrimp can be raised the same as the peppermints, but i think i have read a larva stage of about 90days or more. thats a lot of time to mess up. ill be starting school this summer and wonder if ill even have time to mess with the shrimp when i need to.

now that i have just wrote those two paragraphs, i think ill attempt the sexy shrimp first due to the shorter larva stage. ill think about buying up a pair if i can make it to the frag swap.

Yeah, I didn't do the rotifer thing the first time, but I was considering doing it so I can raise larger brine for the older larvae (as you noted they have a more difficult time with the bbs).

MOFIB has some good articles on Sexys, and after looking for a half an hour I still can't find it, but there is a good article on Sexy shrimp raising done about 10 years ago by a lady in England. She had a basic at home setup and had a high survival rate. Ill keep looking for it.

[Abby]

I'm excited to see the pictures I just took on a REAL screen, I'll take care of them and send them to you tomorrow, probably around 1:00 or so.

[Chad Vossen]

I'm excited to see the pictures I just took on a REAL screen, I'll take care of them and send them to you tomorrow, probably around 1:00 or so.

thank you abby, im excited to see how those pictures turned out!

[Chad Vossen]

only a few of the pictures that were taken turned out any good. its still blurry, but it gives an idea.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp-1.jpg

[Chad Vossen]

took some more pictures today. after cropping the photos, things came out alright.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8875.jpghttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8877.jpghttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8879.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8880.jpghttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8881.jpghttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8882.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8885.jpghttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_8896.jpghttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_88822.jpg

[oltemative]

Those antennae look great! I suspect that you won't see much more growth until meta. I think the next thing to change is that the two centermost antennae will get longer than the others... I'd have to dig up my notes.

How many do you still have left?

[Chad Vossen]

Those antennae look great! I suspect that you won't see much more growth until meta. I think the next thing to change is that the two centermost antennae will get longer than the others... I'd have to dig up my notes.

How many do you still have left?

after a quick peak at the shrimp when i got home, i saw one of them with freakishly long spear legs. it will surely be weird when they all look like this.

will they develop the pleopods before settling into little shrimp? i know the cleaner shrimp would, but i dont think i have heard this for peppermints. im sure they would, and im keeping a close eye on their tails.

[Chad Vossen]

observation from today, the peppermint shrimp seem to be able to retrieve frozen brine shrimp from the bottom of the tank.

i fed frozen brine shrimp (adult size) and the peppermint larva had no problem eating these. i even saw two shrimp feeding on the same food piece. it was kinda comical to see two shrimp larva that each want to go a different direction fighting over a brine shrimp.

from now on i will feed frozen brine shrimp, maybe mysis shrimp depending how tomorrows feeding works. i will still add cyclopeeze to feed the smaller peppermint larva.

i also observed cannibalism attempts between the older peppermint shrimp and some 5-7 day old peppermint shrimp. but just like the live brine shrimp, the small peppermint larva were able to escape.

also, to clarify, i do have two separate batches of peppermint larva in the tank. the original bunch, plus a hatch from last week i just tossed in.

i also siphoned out most of the brine shrimp, it doesn't appear the peppermint shrimp are capable of catching them. i then saw something else interesting, my birdsnest corals could catch and seemed to eat the brine shrimp. *i fed the brine shrimp to the reef tank.*

i should also note that the antenna of the larger peppermint larva are 2-3mm in length. the larva that have been injured, or lost an arm are noticeably smaller, and some have uneven sized limbs assumed to be regrown.

my mini brittle starfish that i added to the larva tank for detritus control have reproduced. i have found several micro sized starfish around the tank. the parent starfish are loosing their arms rapidly, not sure why but maybe due to lower temps?

[Chad Vossen]

something cool i just noticed, the peppermint larva are eating the frozen brine shrimp that i fed them yesterday. so i guess that feeding frozen brine shrimp (possibly even mysis) allows them to forage for dropped food.

this task keeps getting easier.

oltemative mentioned that he probably only got 1 to settle because it ate the other larva. if in my case i have brine/ mysis shrimp sitting on the bottom of the tank, any newly settled shrimp will have something to chew on till i find them.


i truely am looking forward to round 3, since i have learned so much already. in round 3 i also want to try hermit crab larva, so stay tuned for that!

[Chad Vossen]

i counted 23, so i could have at least 20, but probably no more than 25. they are hard to count.


i did not count the smaller ones that im co-culturing with the older ones.

[BiochemRobyn]

Nice... Any idea when they will be ready for the display tank? 3 Months? 6 Months?
:biggrin:

[Turf]

My vote is for cleaner shrimp!!!

[hypertech]

pics man pics!

we need pics!

[oltemative]

if in my case i have brine/ mysis shrimp sitting on the bottom of the tank, any newly settled shrimp will have something to chew on till i find them.

This could work.

[Chad Vossen]

pics man pics!

we need pics!

they still look the same as in post #47. though i should get a picture of one holding a brine shrimp or mysis shrimp. or even a brine shrimp that has two peppermint larva on each end, munching away. ill see what i can do.

[Chad Vossen]

i got some pretty good pictures today, hour in the bathroom (darkness) taking pictures of a tiny shrimp in a vial with a LED on top....

also labeled one of the photos, i believe my largest are now Z8 or Z9, only a few more molts away from settling!


this first picture shows the pleopod buds that are forming on the tail, and also the technical term for those spear legs.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/pleopods12.jpg

the next photo is the same, but without the words.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/pleopods1.jpg

the fallowing are more pictures that came out good, to give an idea what these things look like.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp1.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp3.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp4.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp5.jpg

i also bought more frozen foods, they really like beefheart, but its difficult to feed with due to the huge chunks. also bought more mysis, hikari brand, and they love that too. most of all they really go after brine shrimp. i tried pellets, but they sink to fast and fall apart as they soak up water, but the shrimp did grab bits and swim away stuffing their mouths.

i also noticed this morning, when it is dark in my room, not to turn the lights over the tank on. i flipped the lights on at 5am this morning, and all the shrimp started doing flips and crazy things. they hated it.

[wes]

throw the beef heart in the blender/food processor, maybe?

[Chad Vossen]

throw the beef heart in the blender/food processor, maybe?

family would kick me out if i started doing that.

[kerks01]

Lookin' good :beerchug:

[lottie_pufferfish]

family would kick me out if i started doing that.

"Doooo it! Doooo it!" lol, do it when noones home, then clean the heck out of it. its beef heart so its still human grade food anyways. didnt you get it from a butcher?

[oltemative]

Still have 20+ of these? Those are great pictures. Where did you get your photography idea?

[Chad Vossen]

"Doooo it! Doooo it!" lol, do it when noones home, then clean the heck out of it. its beef heart so its still human grade food anyways. didnt you get it from a butcher?

no, i got it from petsmart... lol
i think im going to return it, i wasn't impressed by it at all.

i went through the petsmart freezer, and if i didnt already have it, i bought it. as of right now, i have 11 different kinds of frozen foods. plus whatever is in the fridge, then my dry foods. the reef gets a varied diet.

dawn suggested a 5$ food processor, i will have to look for it. i

[Chad Vossen]

Still have 20+ of these? Those are great pictures. Where did you get your photography idea?

the photography idea is just trial and error. as far as i know, i still have 20+. i took probably 50-80 pictures of that one shrimp, every 5-10 pictures, i would change something in the attempt to get better pictures.

[PLNelson]

The shrimp look great.

[oltemative]

OK, another week has finally passed any updates? :poke:

[Chad Vossen]

OK, another week has finally passed any updates? :poke:

the pleopods are bigger, thats about it. still waiting.

[Chad Vossen]

i took a few pictures tonight, unfortunately i couldn't get a good picture of the pleopods. i will take more tomorrow to show the development, hopefully i can get some clear photos.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9159.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9167.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9171.jpg

[Chad Vossen]

took a few pictures, this is the setup im using to take the photos.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9225.jpg

only got two good photos before the battery died. i have a 2nd younger shrimp in the picture as well, it is eating a brine shrimp.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9222.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9219-1.jpg

[Chad Vossen]

here is a video
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/th_101_9258.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/?action=view&current=101_9258.flv)

[tittan1500]

wow that light works slick

[LindaJ]

Do you have any for sale now? I need some because of that darn Aiptasia. I would prefer to use shrimp over chemicals. Does anyone have a personal preference on how to take care of these nasty buggers?

Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

Linda J

[tittan1500]

i have used aiptasia control with good success and i have never had it kill anything else in my reef tank.

[Chad Vossen]

Do you have any for sale now? I need some because of that darn Aiptasia. I would prefer to use shrimp over chemicals. Does anyone have a personal preference on how to take care of these nasty buggers?

Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

Linda J

none are for sale yet, and probably not for awhile. when they settle, they are going to be tiny. i could sell them tiny, but beware fish will be able to eat them easily.

[Chad Vossen]

none have settled yet, lots have missing "spear legs", or half regrown legs. they cant settle unless all their legs are perfect... i turned my air bubbles down, hopefully reducing the water flow will prevent damages. i have an idea for next time that should prevent issues like this.

i know that some ppl who raise shrimp, can get them to this stage easily. but sometimes the shrimp just simply wont settle and slowly die off. i fear this may end up happening to me... its suggested there is a settling que that is missing. i added a branch of coral skeleton in hopes of encouraging settlement.

[Chad Vossen]

family would kick me out if i started doing that.



"Doooo it! Doooo it!" lol, do it when noones home, then clean the heck out of it. its beef heart so its still human grade food anyways. didnt you get it from a butcher?

i did it, but i made food for my turtle. lots of berries, fruits, vegitables, and a large sample of each of my frozen foods (bloodworms, krill, mysis, cyclopeeze, daphnia...). nobody was home, so nobody knows :D

[oltemative]

Aloha from Hawaii! I'm on vacation in Oahu.

Well, I have an idea about the mysterious settling cue that invert breeders have been looking for. On the south side of this island there is a phenomenon of jellyfish swarming the beach 8-15 days after the full moon for a couple of days. I wasn't having success with my peps settling in the "appropriate" time either. I had to move them to a different grow out tank so I could get them out of our home office. I moved them to a place that had access to an window without blinds. Eventually, one did settle and the others disappeared for unknown reasons. Maybe they have some lunar cue??? The adults are "nocturnal" and the larvae are attracted to light.

What do you think?

[Chad Vossen]

Aloha from Hawaii! I'm on vacation in Oahu.

Well, I have an idea about the mysterious settling cue that invert breeders have been looking for. On the south side of this island there is a phenomenon of jellyfish swarming the beach 8-15 days after the full moon for a couple of days. I wasn't having success with my peps settling in the "appropriate" time either. I had to move them to a different grow out tank so I could get them out of our home office. I moved them to a place that had access to an window without blinds. Eventually, one did settle and the others disappeared for unknown reasons. Maybe they have some lunar cue??? The adults are "nocturnal" and the larvae are attracted to light.

What do you think?

i guess ill get my window rack built, and move those shrimp over towards the window.

so, you going to smuggle some stuff back for us? ill place my order right now; i want all the dwarf angels you can get, baby dragon moray eel (less than 12 inches would be nice), some buckets of wild copepods collected in open water, and a shot glass from hawaii (i collect them!). yea, im totally joking about all that, have fun on vacation!

[Chad Vossen]

well, it seems im down to 5 shrimp larvae. im certain all of the shrimp from the initial hatch are dead, and im now left with a few that i "tossed in".

water quality was suffering, salinity getting high, and bacterial levels rising. so i added 2 gallons of water from the reef, and added some RO water (mixed both into the drip bucket. i figured i would "top off" the shrimp tank and do a water change at the same time. well, next day (today) i come home from work and find many dead shrimp on the bottom of the tank. i also found a huge amphipod that has aparently been living the good life with all the food.

ill keep going with the few i have, never know what they will do. im going to upgrade back to my 65 gal and i plan to try raising shrimp in the sump.

[Chad Vossen]

WOOT! i had one settle! just yesterday i was watching one of the shrimp, it had both spear legs and the pleopods looked fairly well developed. well today i found another dead shrimp laying on the bottom, but when i looked closer, i saw its eyes were no longer stalked and its body looked bigger. after i took it out, i realized it was a fully settled peppermint shrimp.

so, i have had success, but only sorta.. to claim full success, i need the settled shrimp to live. i still have a few more shrimp larvae that im playing with.

the parent shrimp have started spawning again, well the original shrimp that was mass producing eggs died. i now have only 2 shrimp, and yesterday i noticed one of them has a few eggs, hopefully she will pick up the slack on the egg production. my next attempt will be using heated water, and having the air bubbles contained so the larva dont get their *** kicked. this should speed up the process.

[Chad Vossen]

pictures are taken with the shrimp inside an API test kit tube.

first picture shows the eyes, they are no longer stalked.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp3-1.jpg

last photos show the pleopods and body structure.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp2.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp1-1.jpg

[wolmutt]

cute little buggers. I think its really cool that you are doing this. It's kinda like after we master one part of this hobby we want to master something even harder, and so on. good work, man :biggthumpup:.

[patent]

Pretty cool. My cleaner shrimp are carrying eggs right now, I thought about how cool it would be to raise them, but I think this is still out of my league for now.

[gruntmon]

I think we have a "pair" of cleaners, I wouldn't know the first thing about watching for eggs though. We have 10 peppermints, I would imagine we've had eggs at some point.

[Chad Vossen]

I think we have a "pair" of cleaners, I wouldn't know the first thing about watching for eggs though. We have 10 peppermints, I would imagine we've had eggs at some point.

oh yea, the night life in your tank is well fed with the 10 peppermints you have spawning.

[Chad Vossen]

cute little buggers. I think its really cool that you are doing this. It's kinda like after we master one part of this hobby we want to master something even harder, and so on. good work, man :biggthumpup:.

thank you! well, i haven't exactly mastered keeping corals yet, as i keep having problems and all my corals are browned out... but im learning and tweaking things. to raise something that is born in our tank, we just need to have the time and dedication to give it a try. there is nothing difficult about it if you do some research before making the attempt.

Pretty cool. My cleaner shrimp are carrying eggs right now, I thought about how cool it would be to raise them, but I think this is still out of my league for now.

before i tried the peppermint shrimp, my only other "success" was with zebra danios and before that, guppies... though i wouldnt try the cleaner shrimp as the first attempt (six months for them to settle, if you end up at that 6 month mark and they start dieing, then you gotta start over). i would recommend sexy shrimp or peppermint shrimp as the first try, maybe flame shrimp if you dont mind waiting about 100 days. i bought 3 scarlet hermit crabs in hopes that i got a male/female pair. i intend to make an attempt in the future on these. aparently hermit crabs are really easy and take about 20-30 days to settlement, and feed on BBS and frozen foods.

[Chad Vossen]

so, i just found my first live peppermint shrimp that has settled. it is hanging out on the dead coral skeleton i provided.

i will have pictures soon. im in a hurry right now, but should have pics tonight.

the rest of the shrimp larva are still regrowing lost arms, and i found one this morning that lost a complete spear leg... so that little guy has another week of recovering before it gets another chance at settlement. ugh, i hate their fragile nature.

btw, those 3 scarlet hermits i bought, at least one of them is carrying eggs. holy cows those eggs are red, more red than the hermit crab.

[kerks01]

Looking forward to the pics. :cool:

[oltemative]

CONGRATULATIONS! 25-35 days my ***** eh??

[Chad Vossen]

CONGRATULATIONS! 25-35 days my ***** eh??

oh i know! they must have been feeding some really good food and had the water temp at 90! maybe next time i can hit the 30 day mark. im going to let one or two more settle (so i have more breeding stock) then im going to use the remaining as fish food and clean that tank out. from there ill play with sexy shrimp or hermit crabs till i have my 65 gal set up again. i plan to have an area in my sump (originally wanted to make a fuge, but now ill use it to raise shrimp) to make some cylinder containers with a small screened holes in the sides for diffusing the waste. eh, right nows prob not the best time to describe it, ill have pictures of it when its finished.

[Chad Vossen]

so, today while i was hunting down the peppermint shrimp to take pictures, i found 2 more! i now have 3 that have settled, and possibly a 4th. i have one that has not settled, but its spear legs are the same in size and i figure its next molt will be settlement.

here are pictures!

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9580.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/101_9576.jpg

[hypertech]

way cool

[spectrum]

Thats awsome keep up the good work. Now only if you can do this with cleaner shrimp you can pay for your hobby :greenguy:

[kylesmoney]

im impressed, good work!

[Chad Vossen]

Thats awsome keep up the good work. Now only if you can do this with cleaner shrimp you can pay for your hobby :greenguy:

cleaner shrimp should be easy, however they are not as aggressive eaters. they are more fragile, and take about 6 months to settle. so there is a lot more room for error with these guys. if i can make a setup that doesn't require as much attention, and is safe for larval shrimp, i may try the cleaner some day. i have a few ideas, hopefully i can try them soon.

today i picked up a group of sexy shrimp. i got a male and female, and a 3rd that i hope is a female, but im not as certain. aparently these are easier than peppermints and faster to settle. i don't know how easy they are to feed though.

[Chad Vossen]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimplarvae.jpg

[hamdogg08]

I'm so impressed by what you've done so far. You're doing a great job of contributing to the hobby.

[spectrum]

:wink3: Big smiley for trying

[storrisch]

if i can make a setup that doesn't require as much attention, and is safe for larval shrimp, i may try the cleaner some day. i have a few ideas, hopefully i can try them soon.

I wonder if a modified version of the egg tumbler/fry keepers I used to make might work for the larva. I used them in just about every tank I had when I was breeding FW fish. It allows you to keep them in the tank so you can have so you have the stability of a larger system but still isolating them from threats.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n59/storrisch/DSCF2207.jpg

You could do away w/ the sponge and everything.

How small of an opening can they get through? I have a few ideas too. I can try to put something together for you as well and see if it works.

[Chad Vossen]

i have an idea myself to contain the shrimp in a safe zone yet have the water connected to my reef tank.

my idea goes something like this. but in my sump where i would have put a fuge.

http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/tamu/tamug01003.pdf

[Turf]

Hey way cool to see them and I love the macro shot once you see them next to the ruler.

[kylesmoney]

how are you preventing them from being pulled out with the water?

[kylesmoney]

it looks like just a piece of paper towel over the pipe but i would think that would fall apart?

[Chad Vossen]

it looks like just a piece of paper towel over the pipe but i would think that would fall apart?

can you quote the picture your talking about?

[Chad Vossen]

found a 4th shrimp today.

next meeting i go to, ill be selling the parent shrimp. ill probably sell them for 6$ each, to cover gas.... lol

[kylesmoney]

i was refering to the picture from storrisch at the end of the last page. i might just not understand exactly what im lookin at either.

[storrisch]

i was refering to the picture from storrisch at the end of the last page. i might just not understand exactly what im lookin at either.

The picture is of an egg tumbler/fry keeper I used when breeding cichlids. It allowed me to keep the fry in the same tank as the parents without any issues with them being eaten.

The stripped eggs were tumbled in the area just under the black cap until they were able to be moved into the specimen container that fed into above.

The travel of the air drew in fresh water with it and pushed the old out of the hole drilled in the center of the specimen container. There is a piece of nylon in there to keep any fry from swimming out (this needs to be cleaned daily.)

[kylesmoney]

cool i understand it when I look at it now :beerchug:

i was lookin at it and thought the nylon looked like paper towel and was thinkin to myself, that doesnt seem like it would work very well. :greenguy:

[Chad Vossen]

i have a shrimp larvae that has been repeatedly breaking legs off and regrowing them for over two weeks. every time this shrimp looks like its going to settle, it breaks a leg off.
anyways, this shrimp larvae seems to be taking on some behavior of the settled shrimp. it is using its legs to hold onto things and grasp the side of the tank. today it was laying face down on top of a pellet that i fed them, normally they would pick this up and swim with it.

i think this larvae is so past due for settlement that its behaving as it would if it had settled.

i still plan to feed the remaining larvae to the fish, though i just haven't gotten around to it. maybe ill end up with a 5th settled shrimp before i find the time to start a new project. hehe

[lottie_pufferfish]

Keep going with it, why stop?

[Chad Vossen]

Keep going with it, why stop?

i really wanna get started on the hermit crabs. or, first batch of sexy shrimp eggs, ill be ready for those.

i just want to familiarize myself with other inverts to determine what i have more success with.

i will absolutely do peppermint shrimp again. i really want to hit that 30 day settlement i keep hearing about. i think to settle in 30 days will require a heater, obviously.

[Chad Vossen]

before i forget, here are some pictures i took a few days ago.
these show the coloration on the "spear legs".
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp%20larvae/shrimp.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/armagedon48/shrimp%20larvae/101_9746.jpg

[Chad Vossen]

i found another, newly settled shrimp. my total is now 5. im moving them all into a breeder net inside the shrimp tank so they can grow up.

i have cleaned and painted their larval tank. im preparing it for the hermit crab larvae.

so, in the future, i will have two wild caught adults for sale as well as two captive born peppermint shrimp.

[FryzDog]

Keep up the good work and good luck with the hermits.

[Chad Vossen]

right now i have 5 small peppermint shrimp, and one of them is now on its second load of eggs. im tempted to raise a F2 batch, but right now i have 4-5 day old hermit crabs in the larval tank. i want to wait for those to settle before i make a thread on them.

[wolmutt]

pics of the shrimp?