Nitrate problems, help please?

[Neuropathy]

To start off, I'm new to the hobby but and am learning the hard way. I just bought a 125 gal. set up with various mushrooms, anemones, and LPS along with 7 fish. The guy said he did bi-monthly water changes and maintained the tank well. The move went ok w/ an attempt to keep the substrate in the tank with a small amount of water. The tests administered after everything was in the tank was a mess. I have everything balanced now but my nitrates are at 100 +, and that is after 5 50% water changes in the last 2 weeks. At $1 a gal. at WOF, it is getting expensive. So the ?. Is there a cheaper way to lower my nitrates and am I going about it the Right way? Someone please help!: confused:

[David Grigor]

Provide some specs please especially what hardware you using for filtration.

Are you currently having algae issues ? When it comes to nitrates and phosphates I tend to not trust test kits.

[Neuropathy]

I am using a wet dry (bioball) sub system with oceanic protein skimmer. I also have a micron canister filter for when I clean the tank

[Neuropathy]

I do not have any large algea blooms, tank looks healthy

[Neuropathy]

I have 180lbs substrate, 140lbs live rock, 2 overflows w/ 2 returns. Overflows lead to a bioball filtration unit above my sump. protein skimmer is on overflow side of sump which is separted from the return pump by a (sponge?) filter. UV sterilizer is not hooked up. Nitrates have been tested with two different test kits. Someone please give me an idea of what I need to look into.

[BiochemRobyn]

Yeah- Nitrates at 100+ is not good. I'm guessing that something must have died in the move.

Although I don't know a good way other than water changes and a good skimmer to reduce nitrates, I do know that if you have a 125 it would definately be worth your money to buy a good RO water system. I think that Droinablunt still has one for sale if your interested.

[Neuropathy]

I was told by LFS that the nitrates in the water reach equilibrium with the substrate and rock so that changing the water only allows for more nitrates to be "desolved" by the water. If this is the case, then there must be a lot of nitrates sitting around. Does this make sense to anyone?

[epidemic]

I am using a wet dry (bioball) sub system with oceanic protein skimmer. I also have a micron canister filter for when I clean the tank

THIS IS WHY.

[epidemic]

biological filtration creats nitrates. Skip the bioballs. That should help.

[Neuropathy]

Don't I have to have a some sort of biofiltration? other than the rock

[epidemic]

No, Live rock is all you need. It is porous and has bacteria deep inside it that respire anaerobiclly, which degrade nitrogenous species- NO2, NO3, NH3

[Neuropathy]

Do I just remove them completely, and monitor my ammonia and nitrites for the following few weeks to make sure they don't spike?

[mattb]

Remove them, if it makes you sleep better at night, remove some, then all of them. Save yourself some money, call Jim at the filterguyz and get an ro/di unit. There are other ways of lowering NO3, but, I'd only recommend to advanced reefers.... You could use AZ-NO3, it does work, but you'd need to follow instructions. What you would be doing is a controlled carbon source to jump start the bacteria that may provide you with some denitrification.

A better way would be, after removing the bioballs, to add a refugium.....

Do you have a lot of algae growing?

[rihanssu]

how does the live stock look? if it looks healthy i wouldn't worry much, get rid of them blue balls! no one likes blue balls! and get yourself a RO/di, best money i ever spent! looks like if you got one it would pay for itself in a month i would imagine the move stirred up the crap in your sand. just let it go on its own.

[Beng]

Not trying to knock on anyone's statement but DON'T waste your money on AZ-NO3. AZ-NO3 is a temporary fix that takes about a month to work and you have to dose everyday. And if you are not careful, you can/will kill your fishes (it depletes your tank of oxygen). I have a new un-open 2 month old bottle if you want to try, I'll sell it for half price :)

The only SURE way I've found to bring Nitrate down to 0 and keep it there regardless of how many fish I have in my tank has been thru the use of a Sulfur DeNitrifier. I did a DIY using a Lowes large water filter and it works great. My nitrate was 100+ and after 3 weeks, my Nitrate is under 5. As of now my Nitrate is 0 and I have NOT done any water change for 3 months.

Will try to post some picts of my setup once I get new battery for my Digi Cam.


Beng

[mattb]

Beng, it's not a waste. The principle is the same as your sulfur denitrifier. You use the carbon source (AZNO3, Vodka, zeovit) to create/establish the bacteria cultures that take care of NO3 (as well as PO4s). As far as how long it takes, good things happen slowly in reef tanks, bad things quickly.

A denitrifyer isn't the only sure way to do this. The above methods work just as good if not better.

[David Grigor]

Kalkwasser mixed with high dosages of vinegar also can reduce nitrates and phosphates significantly the same was as the others mentioned by creating a carbon source for the bacteria. Bill Capman has one of his students doing a controlled study on it.

Like Matt and others have mentioned though, I don't recommend anyone using these methods who are still a newbie. There is just too much that can go wrong if not followed correctly and/or closely monitored.

First course of action would be to remove your bio balls, and improved your other export methods such as refugium, better skimmer etc. If your not having algae issue and otherwise things look healthy I'd likely just stop there.

[Beng]

Sorry, waste was probably the wrong word.
I would still say if you are going to buy the AZ-NO3, you are better off putting that money in a Sulfur DeNitrifier. Reason is, once you stop dosing AZ-NO3, your Nitrate will jump right back up. Whereas if you run a Sulfur DeNitrifier, it works continuously once it has broken in. And in addition to keeping your Nitrate at 0, you can also hookup the output flow to calcium media and WAHLA, you now have a Sulfur DeNitrifier and Calcium Reactor, all in one.

For my setup, I'm using a large Lowes clear water filter housing for the Sulfur reaction chamber and 3 (3 liter) pop bottles for Calcium reactor chambers.

It works great. Will post pics of my ghetto setup once I get home and get battery for camera.

One thing that I'm still puzzle over though, before I setup my Sulfur DeNitrifier
and even now, there is so little info about Sulfur DeNitrifiers. From what I've seen on my own tank, I can't believe so few people are running Sulfur DeNitrifiers. I can't believe I'm the only that has problem with high Nitrates.

Beng

[superman]

I seriously think that your test kits are wrong and all this worry is for nothing. I wish someone in the club had a colorimeter test kit. If your tank (corals, fish, no algae blooms..etc) look fine, then I would just keep on doing what you're doing, maybe throw a refugium on the tank and just do your water changes as usual. With such a high amount of nitrates so early on in the game for a young(ish) tank, something just doesn't seem right with your tests.

[mattb]

I agree, test kits are limited at best.... I'm thinking of picking up a colormeter as I'm experimenting with vodka.

Beng, sulfur denitrators have the same thing that DSBs, and zeovit/prodibio/vodka have.... a lot of people didn't follow the directions and go slow and the results either got them in trouble or something altogether different caused the bad results not the new piece of equipment/system/additive etc. It's that whole correlation doesn't equal causation... The other thing is that the views in this hobby are cyclical, what was once cool is now passe, then cool etc etc etc.

I'd bet it'd take a lot of AZNO3 to equate to your denitrifier though! The danger with the denitrifyer though is that you may cause sulfate ionic imbalances....

[redlion4]

I am using a wet dry (bioball) sub system with oceanic protein skimmer. I also have a micron canister filter for when I clean the tankTHIS IS WHY.
Remember that generalizations, however often true, are not "law". We run a wet/dry with bioballs and do not have nitrate issues on our 55 gallon reef tank. Been setup this way now for over 4 years.

I will concede that high nitrates are more often present in systems with BB, than without. However, any assumption or statement that this relationship always occurs is misplaced.

Ryan.

[mtfatwork]

did the substrate get all moved around in the move?

[Beng]

Well, here's my ghetto pictures of my ghetto Sulfur Denitrifier. This is NOT my idea, idea was originally from WmTasker at the reeftank.com
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=587186&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/mypicture007/reactor.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/mypicture007/housing01.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/mypicture007/pop01.jpg

Baahh..maybe I should not have mention any pictures.

Beng

[Beng]

The 3 bottles are the large 3 liter pop bottles available at Cubs. Bottle 1 and 2together holds 10lbs of Ca Media. Each bottle can be easily unplug for rinsing if it gets too dirty.

I did swipe picture 1 from TroyPierce at the reeftank, my unit is in use so I couldn't get any clear pictures.

Clear water filter housing from Lowes = $55.00
2 lbs of Sulfur Media = $35.00
3 Pop bottles = $3.00

Beng

[Neuropathy]

Thanks to everybody who responded, everyone is very helpfull in here. I just removed about a third of bio balls, bought a RO filter, and have just removed all rock and animals to do a thorough cleaning of the substrate because it was stirred up pretty good in the move. I'm doing a %50 water change, and taking my time at it. I'm sure my tests ard chem levels are going to be all over the place, but its worth it to get this nitrate monkey off my back. I was also able to get a bag on my arc eye hawkfish, cup a 8 inch RBTA (good color, no green) so if anyone has a system compatable trade, there going for cheap because there not going back in my tank.

[David Grigor]

If you didn't pick up a DI to do with the RO, that should be one of the first things on your wish list. RO alone isn't good enough IMO....... thefilterguys.biz will fix you up for an add on DI unit just be sure to get the 10" canisters and not the little inline. Also if to RO unit didn't come with a TDS meter your going to want one of those too......

[Timmy77]

I could not get my nitrates below 25 then I got a tunze. Water movement made a big difference for me. My skimmer production tripled. My tank is also a 125rr with a 40 gallon sump. The mag 18 for my return and one small power head was not enough. All this said I sold my tunze 6060 because it was to much flow for my clam and corals. Well my nitrates are slightly up and I'm having a cino bloom. I ordered a nano stream 6045 and hope the flow will be about right.

[David Grigor]

I ordered a nano stream 6045 and hope the flow will be about right.

FYI Ocean Devotions has them in stock same price as mail order.....

[spectrum]

a water change is the best and fastest way to lower the Nitrate problem. maybe slow down on feeding or do a smaller WC more often. welcome to the club.