suger and vodka?

[thepollock]

i have been seeing this on the sight. where do i find out more and what is the reason for doing this?

[mattb]

It's for lowering nutrient levels by supplying a carbon source to bacteria. There's a thread on RC for vodka dosing....
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=288714&perpage=25&pagenumber=21

Read it all.... yes, you can mess up your system by OD'ing. I've been dosing vodka for almost a month. I've not had the massive bacteria bloom, but a slow reduction in nutrients. If you go too fast, you'll possibly have RTN if you keep sps... It's been done in Europe for a few years. It's like a lot of probiotic systems out there, ZEO, prodibio, FM ultralithe, etc. Except you aren't adding a bacteria source, but are relying on existing cultures/species... I've no experience with sugar, and I've not found a dosing regime (other than what's in pappone).

[mtfatwork]

add a spoonfull of sugar, to help the medicine go down.....


And a thimble of vodka if your fish are teething...

[kjdeut]

I thought it was brandy for teething :smile:

[Energy]

I've been dosing sugar for awhile. I use a teaspoon for my 1700 gallons per day. The initial dose was a teaspoon per 200 gallons. I know Palletta vodka doses which is the same as sugar dosing. I use the teaspoon per day mixed in with the fish food. With spazz's monster skimmer cleaning and polishing the water all my softies starting to cack. By sugar dosing they are flourishing and my water is staying clean. The bacteria the sugar produces provides enough nutrients for some of the softies. This is my understanding of the process. The sugar enables a bacterial growth spurt. As the bacteria grow they consume phosphates and nitrates. After they consume these they become skimmable, which is why you'll notice your skimmer going crazy. So in theory you are able to make nitrates and phosphates which were previously not skimmable- a skimmable compound.

[thepollock]

thanx stan, if i wanted to start doing this how would i find out how much to add to my 40g with a 30 long sump?

[Energy]

Do a search on reef central. This will give you some general guidelines. I think (not sure) that 1/2-1 teaspoon (sugar)per 50 gallons is the starter dose. Then the italians use just a pinch for regular maintence. Vodka dosing is the same thing so I'm sure there is plenty of info to find.

[mattb]

That link shows what vodka dosing regimine you should start with. It's pretty conservative. The first week is something like .1ml of vodka per 100 liters ( ~26 gallons) of water ( not tank size but your water volume).

[hypoxia]

Hm. If I dip into the vodka for this my husband will absolutely divorce me. *heh*

[oyam123]

is this white sugar?
any brand of Vodka?
If I dont have a skimmer, then I should pass on this?

[mattb]

I would... the bacteria will contribute to the the bioload (CO2) to the system. Without the gas exchange, you may stress everything out. Vodka has to be 40% proof.....

[epidemic]

you can also cause a cyano outbreak if you dont skim enough while dosing

[Soltaker]

So in theory you are able to make nitrates and phosphates which were previously not skimmable- a skimmable compound.

Given your experience so far, would you then agree it is a much better method than using a phos reactor with Rowa in it?

[Energy]

I currently run rowa in a reactor as well just to ensure that phosphates stay close to zero. The sugar seems to increase the bacteria count,decrease nitrates and assist with removing phosphates. It will increase the cyano if not run with a good skimmer.

[Soltaker]

I currently run rowa in a reactor as well just to ensure that phosphates stay close to zero. The sugar seems to increase the bacteria count,decrease nitrates and assist with removing phosphates. It will increase the cyano if not run with a good skimmer.


Cool!

I'm guessing you should have no problem staying cyno-free :biggthumpup:

[Energy]

Until the Volcanoe went on the sugar did cause Cyano outbreaks. Now I have little problems. On a side note I experienced a small bacterial bloom last night. The tank water was slightly cloudy due to a increase in my sugar addition from the night before. I did nothing to rectify the situation but just let it be. My ORP was about 370 -380 while this was happening. This morning the water is crystal clear again and the orp went to 418. The skimmer produced a huge amount of skimmate overnight from the bacterial bloom. Prior to the bacterial bloom the tank orp hovered between 390-400 on average.

[mattb]

That's a scary pic STan :)...

Yeah, I get a little cyano, like 2" square. But I'm dosing a lot more carbon than Stan is.... 5ml of vodka. Skimmer goes crazy. I can not tell how much my ORP is dropping when I dose vodka as I do it when my light are on, which is when the ORP typically falls anyway....

Stan, I'm curious have you ever experienced 'the bloom' by dosing sugar heavily? (Water gets really cloudy?)

[superman]

The reason for the skimming so heavily is that bacterial levels in the water column (an often forgotten area of bacterial colonization) has a huge growth explosion when you introduce a carbon source into the water. Without a skimmer this could easily send a tank into a deadly spiral.

[mattb]

You have to add a lot of carbon into the tank to get that sort of a bacteria bloom. The corals also consume the bacteria in the water column....

[stuckey_t]

I've been reading about the italian methods on reefcentral for a awhile now and think i might dabble and try the blu coral technique for a 5-6 months to see what happens. i think the pappone food coupled with the amino acids sounds intriguing. i stopped at coastal seafoods to pick up the ingredients and plan on whipping up a batch of pappone tonight. if a guy could get his hand on the growth hormones i bet it would make for an interesting coral response:biglaugh2: seachem reefplus aminos coupled with the pappone feeding regimen seems to be the closest we can get over here in the states to their technique. the sugar in their recipe doesn't amount to much so i would caution anyone to be careful before they just start dumping sugar or vodka into their tanks. And as always, a big *** skimmer is going to do a lot of the work in keeping water quality safe...

[spsick]

I've been reading about the italian methods on reefcentral for a awhile now and think i might dabble and try the blu coral technique for a 5-6 months to see what happens. i think the pappone food coupled with the amino acids sounds intriguing. i stopped at coastal seafoods to pick up the ingredients and plan on whipping up a batch of pappone tonight. if a guy could get his hand on the growth hormones i bet it would make for an interesting coral response:biglaugh2: seachem reefplus aminos coupled with the pappone feeding regimen seems to be the closest we can get over here in the states to their technique. the sugar in their recipe doesn't amount to much so i would caution anyone to be careful before they just start dumping sugar or vodka into their tanks. And as always, a big *** skimmer is going to do a lot of the work in keeping water quality safe...

I had looked into this myself, but after much consideration, it's kinda like, if it aint broke dont fix it. Stuckey I know you have to be getting decent growth as I am, I dont think there's a need for "steriods" unless your really impatient, while those italian tanks look pretty sweet, I think i'm doing just fine the old fashion way, and i'm sure most of us are as well. while the pappone feeding seems like a good idea for growth and health, I don't see any need to do the amino acids. can you picture coral roid rage??:rotflmao:
just my 2 cents
on the actual subject of this thread, wow, who was actually like hmm... i think i'll put some vodka in my tank??looks interesting.

[Energy]

I've fed my corals for years. Never used the aminos nd the sugar up until somewhat recently. I have had minor blooms, slight cloudiness on two occasions. One was last night like I said earlier. The other was after my first dose a long time ago. I do get a bacterial film along the acrylic panes that needs to be scraped like algae. Basically everything with the sugar additions and huge skimmer have responded incredibly. Again I think a top quality skimmer is neccesary for this to work. My old "big ugly" didn't handle the bacterial blooms nearly as well as the Volcanoe. So Cyanoe was a problem before and it really isn't a big issue now. I do have some but it's not unreasonable. Again the softies seem to respond incredibily well to the sugar/bacterial additions. My LPS doesn't benefit much and does not seem to like the super clean water.

[stuckey_t]

I had looked into this myself, but after much consideration, it's kinda like, if it aint broke dont fix it. Stuckey I know you have to be getting decent growth as I am, I dont think there's a need for "steriods" unless your really impatient, while those italian tanks look pretty sweet, I think i'm doing just fine the old fashion way, and i'm sure most of us are as well. while the pappone feeding seems like a good idea for growth and health, I don't see any need to do the amino acids. can you picture coral roid rage??:rotflmao:
just my 2 cents
on the actual subject of this thread, wow, who was actually like hmm... i think i'll put some vodka in my tank??looks interesting.

:biglaugh2: definitely some good points you've got. if its not broke don't fix it:) I know a lot of members in the club used to make borneman's coral food then reefchili came along and now a lot of us use that. the pappone has a lot of the same ingredients as borneman's just adds the sugar more or less. from what i gather the aminos are added before the food to help the coral polyps come out and elicits a better feeding response. you also have to seperately feed your fish. Seeing some of coloration the italian tanks get with their corals, it's cheap enough to try. All the ingredients to make a double batch of pappone cost me about $28.00. Should be enough to last me my 6 month trial with feeding it to the tank twice a week....time will tell

[spsick]

that's one thing I can't argue with is the COLORS. and man, I spend more than that in prepared foods. it's prolly worth a shot, let me know how it goes guys. Another thing I wanted to mention, one of the nicest sytem's I have ever seen, and with the most explosive growth, and best color, is one that was just fed dry food every couple days and just a very standard setup on a 1803x175 10k and 4 vho's on a , normal size PM skimmer, DSB,
very normal,
and that has always held me back from extreme changes like this, the ecosytem, and the tyree EG method.but on the other side, let's compare italian and american cars, ferrari makes a new cast for every single motor it produces, and one man assembles each motor from start to finish, in 8 hours.
those f ing italians,they've got the touch.
again these are just my random babblings from my ongoing sps quest( sounds like a good name for a reality tv show). does anyone else hate reality tv as passionately as me?

[stuckey_t]

i kinda like the girls gone wild videos:biglaugh2:

[MNGold15]

i kinda like the girls gone wild videos:biglaugh2:

Hey, save that vodka for dosing! :rotflmao:

[mattb]

I've been easing into pappone, dosing like 3x week with KZ amino acids.... Also when you feed pappone, be sure to take off the top of your skimmer otherwise you're kinda defeating the purpose....

[stuckey_t]

I've been easing into pappone, dosing like 3x week with KZ amino acids.... Also when you feed pappone, be sure to take off the top of your skimmer otherwise you're kinda defeating the purpose....

3 * a week???

[mattb]

yup..

[stuckey_t]

yup..

maybe to early to tell, but have any thoughts on how your corals have been reacting to the regimen? color good, faster growth etc...


I made my pappone food last night and modified it just a little bit. I put in 1 whole jar of reef chili and a bar and 1/2 of cyclopeeze. Might as well feed the lps too if I'm going to feed the sps overnight. I've got about 3 full ice cube trays worth so that should last me 4-5 months....

[mattb]

Yeah, it's too early and the system has only been up for a couple of months. I just changed out the halides bulbs too... too many changes at once. I also added ozone :)

May be I should be taking more pictures......

[stuckey_t]

Yeah, it's too early and the system has only been up for a couple of months. I just changed out the halides bulbs too... too many changes at once. I also added ozone :)

May be I should be taking more pictures......

Thumbs up on the ozone! A big plus I think:banana:

[Energy]

I think trying to follow the exact recipe for pappone is a exercise in futility. I see no point in following it to the T. Bornemans recipe blended down to the size that corals can ingest will probably work just as well. The only difference with pappone is the amino addition and the sugar. I've seen responses on some forums where the italians are anal about the exact composition and ratio of the food mixture. The point is the corals are getting fed-the water is becoming cleaner by the sugar/bacterial addition and aminos are available for growth. I've used the borneman mixture before but I take each batch and finely blend part of the mixture to different gradients right down to a pure liquid. I mix all these together in one large slop bucket and soak it in vitamins for about 5 hours. Then seperate into bags. Then when I feed this mixture the fish,corals and everything in-between has something available in a vitamin enriched broth. I've used this for years,just without the sugar. This is the kicker that I've noticed to make a big difference. I've gone so far as to lower my calcium levels and have still noticed consideable growth. Furthermore the sugar with a huge skimmer has produced the absolutely most intense coloring I've ever seen. NOTE: IMPORTANT- In my experiences the right sized skimmer is absolutely neccesary to optimize this. For instance- Redwinger donated a turd brown coral to my tank when he shut his down. I couldn't get this butt ugly thing to color for nothing. Sugar or not it stayed the same. After Spazz stuck the volcanoe on my tank this coral absolutely POPPED along with every coral in my system. In one week it went from blase brown to mind blowing blue with shades of passion purple. This was due to the skimmer not the sugar. BUT the sugar has helped to make the corals get that little extra edge or shimmer. You can see the growth tips actually look like they glow.

[stuckey_t]

I think trying to follow the exact recipe for pappone is a exercise in futility. I see no point in following it to the T. Bornemans recipe blended down to the size that corals can ingest will probably work just as well. The only difference with pappone is the amino addition and the sugar. I've seen responses on some forums where the italians are anal about the exact composition and ratio of the food mixture. The point is the corals are getting fed-the water is becoming cleaner by the sugar/bacterial addition and aminos are available for growth. I've used the borneman mixture before but I take each batch and finely blend part of the mixture to different gradients right down to a pure liquid. I mix all these together in one large slop bucket and soak it in vitamins for about 5 hours. Then seperate into bags. Then when I feed this mixture the fish,corals and everything in-between has something available in a vitamin enriched broth. I've used this for years,just without the sugar. This is the kicker that I've noticed to make a big difference. I've gone so far as to lower my calcium levels and have still noticed consideable growth. Furthermore the sugar with a huge skimmer has produced the absolutely most intense coloring I've ever seen. NOTE: IMPORTANT- In my experiences the right sized skimmer is absolutely neccesary to optimize this. For instance- Redwinger donated a turd brown coral to my tank when he shut his down. I couldn't get this butt ugly thing to color for nothing. Sugar or not it stayed the same. After Spazz stuck the volcanoe on my tank this coral absolutely POPPED along with every coral in my system. In one week it went from blase brown to mind blowing blue with shades of passion purple. This was due to the skimmer not the sugar. BUT the sugar has helped to make the corals get that little extra edge or shimmer. You can see the growth tips actually look like they glow.

Stan,

how often do you feed your food to the tank? i've seen conflicting information on the frequency of feedings. I also think a big part of the routine that is/was always different from how I used to feed borneman's mush is removing the skimmer cup overnight. In the past I always kept the skimmer on all the time and maybe giving them a whole night to capture/ absorb oyster blood makes a difference:wink: i understand the sugar is supposed to be the key here but having the goo in the tank for awhile can't hurt either. Oh yeah, having a big *** spazz skimmer sure gives you piece of mind to add this stuff...

[rihanssu]

troy, go to GNC and ask for the purest form of growth hormone they got. i forget whats its called but its in pill form and it 34.99

[Energy]

My bornemans mush automatically shuts down skimmer production for about three hours. Something in the mixture stops all skimmate as soon as the food is added. I think it might be the oil from the chopped and mushed fish. I have never intentionally stopped the skimmer because of this. So my mixture gets about a three hour head start and I do this every night. I have used this food for years with no dramatic results. The biggest things that have made the real changes are the skimmer and a smaller part the sugar. They work hand in hand. Like I said I used the sugar prior to the big @ss skimmer going on-line and noticed cyano. Now with the skimmer and the sugar the water is really getting purified. IMO I wouldn't add sugar without a really good skimmer.

[mattb]

The key thing is that you are skimming just due to the oils in the food and aminos, you're not collecting..... There's a paper out there that talks about nutrient surges on the reefs.... this is what we're doing. I'll try to find that and post....

[stuckey_t]

troy, go to GNC and ask for the purest form of growth hormone they got. i forget whats its called but its in pill form and it 34.99


growth hormone or amino acids?

[stuckey_t]

My bornemans mush automatically shuts down skimmer production for about three hours. Something in the mixture stops all skimmate as soon as the food is added. I think it might be the oil from the chopped and mushed fish. I have never intentionally stopped the skimmer because of this. So my mixture gets about a three hour head start and I do this every night. I have used this food for years with no dramatic results. The biggest things that have made the real changes are the skimmer and a smaller part the sugar. They work hand in hand. Like I said I used the sugar prior to the big @ss skimmer going on-line and noticed cyano. Now with the skimmer and the sugar the water is really getting purified. IMO I wouldn't add sugar without a really good skimmer.

so you feed the coral food every night?

[davidsreef]

Alright, stupid question time. Stan, do you also have a UV sterlizer running 24/7 on your tank? Would the use of UV help/hurt the addition of sugar since adding it increases the bacteria levels, which in turn should be killed by the UV. If I were to add sugar in the future, would it be a good idea to "under" UV so as not to kill ALL bacteria immediately, or is that an impossibility? Thanks! - David

[mattb]

UV would only kill bacteria that is in the water column....

[Energy]

U.V would kill the bacteria in the water column only. I do not run U.V. or ozone. I used to run both but found better alternatives to reach to the same goals. I feed every night and have done so for years. U.V and ozone both have a place but I've learned to live without them. I try to make things run as efficiently as possible and a 240 watt U.V sterilizer running 24/7 isn't efficient. Consider as well the amount of heat it kicks into the water and the time/expense to keep bulbs clean and new and it turns out to be a large waste of resources that can be better utilized.
Ozone is great for small tanks but on a system as large as mine it can be dangerous. The amount of ozone I would have to inject into the water column could be fatal if an accident occured and it escaped into the house. Furthermore a little bit of humidity will cut ozone production by half or more. Therefore dryers are neccesary and another waste of time. I would endorse ozone as a great way to purify water on a smaller tank which you could inject directly into the skimmer.

[hypoxia]

So I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I'm wondering if sugar or vodka would be appropriate for smaller tanks. I see everyone discussing larger tanks, and while I'm mindful that smaller tanks have more delicate balances, I'm extremely curious to find out if something like this would be appropriate for my 35-gallon which has a Bak-Pak II for a skimmer. Any thoughts?

[mattb]

I'd be worried about the skimmer. If you do start it though, go slow... better slow than fast. It doesn't really matter about tank size, it does the same thing...

[Energy]

For sure- start slow and keep an eye on things. The sugars main benefit is reducing nitrate although many claim it also eliminates phosphates. Personally I don't think it does much for phosphates but I do see a benefit dosing sugar. This works for any size tank.

[mattb]

It should reduce phosphates too. The bacteria use the O for respiration in either molecule. I'm running 0ppm on phosphates using Deltec/Merck (not sure its bacteria related or skimmer related), but I can't get my NO3 sub 1ppm. I read on the vodka thread that there may be some preference to PO4 over NO3 due to the ease of breaking one down over the other.

[stuckey_t]

From what I've gathered from the blu coral italian method is that sugar is a safer bet than dosing vodka. something about the vodka being a more complicated step for the bacteria to act upon makes it easier to screw up the right dosage. personally i'm not going to dose sugar except only to follow the pappone recipe (which calls for adding sugar) as proposed by the italian method. the coral growth these guys are getting over there makes american tanks look like slow motion growth. the thread on reefcentral is over 40 pages long but well worth the time to read:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=971190&perpage=25&pagenumber=31

i've started the pappone feeding, not sure if i will dabble in the amino acid supplements or the GH growth hormone. I do keep my calcium, alkalinty, and magnesium parameters high but need to even bump those up a good amount to match the italian method. none-the-less, you can not argue with the growth these pictures show and they get this growth from using this method. if you've got the "berlin style" basics down this looks like a good step to take your reef tank to the next level:wink: The Italians stress that the growth hormone is not citical but the pappone food, elevated parameters, and amino acid addition make the biggest difference in coral growth...My eyes hurt from reading all day:cool:

[mattb]

According to the Italians, you need to dose the aminos which stimulate PE... That is one thing I'm not doing, keeping elevated mg,ca and alk. I'd be interested to see how that goes, raising the params. I've been thinking of going back to Oceanic salt since they have Mg ~1500, and Ca 500+... alk is low, I guess one could crank up the Ca Rx. The only downside, is that I seemed to get a lot of abiotic precipitation. But I didn't keep alk that high, close to NSW, ~7 dkh.

Having been to Europe and seen many reef tanks, honestly, their tanks are pretty wicked....

[stuckey_t]

one thing that I'm hunting for is a link or confirmation on what exactly they are dosing for aminos...??? I'm only to page 31 on their reefcentral thread and I might not have come to that part yet. I see a few people mixing up their own aminos from like GNC or something. Some are using SeaChem or Zeovit aminos. Reefplus fomr seachem seems to be a big one. I don't want to just start dumping bodybuilding powders into my tank:rotflmao: If anyone has a confirmed link or can point me to hard information I would like to take a look at it:shocked:

[mattb]

Yeah, different people are using different products. I'm usig Zeo HCAA. I don't trust Seachem, and I've not found anything at GNC that didn't have "fillers" in it....

[hypoxia]

I decided to give this a try, so the day before yesterday I added just a pinch of sugar to the skimmer and kapow! More skimmate than I've ever pulled before.

[David Grigor]

I know Capman and a student were doing studies on higher Vinegar concentrations in Kalkwasser and were getting the same type of results as the sugar/vodka. So I'm guessing it's all the same principle of adding a carbon source. They are able to greatly reduce nitrates and phosphates ( but not 0 phosphates ). If your already doing Kalkwasser, I'd imagine that would be an easier way to implement without having to do manual dosing ( which is what I want to avoid ).....

[sea monkey]

I do keep my calcium, alkalinty, and magnesium parameters high but need to even bump those up a good amount to match the italian method.

what levels do they maintain ?

[sea monkey]

one thing that I'm hunting for is a link or confirmation on what exactly they are dosing for aminos...??? I'm only to page 31 on their reefcentral thread and I might not have come to that part yet. I see a few people mixing up their own aminos from like GNC or something. Some are using SeaChem or Zeovit aminos. Reefplus fomr seachem seems to be a big one. I don't want to just start dumping bodybuilding powders into my tank:rotflmao: If anyone has a confirmed link or can point me to hard information I would like to take a look at it:shocked:

anyone tried these ?

http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AO&Product_Code=FM-UMINS100&Category_Code=FM-AA

http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AO&Product_Code=FM-UMIN100&Category_Code=FM-AA

[spsick]

what levels do they maintain ?
i'm pretty sure it was Ca-500+ Mg-1500+, cant remember the alk, but it was high! That's why they need 2 large calcium reactors, wow!

[mtfatwork]

Ca 500
DKH 13


IIRC.

[Energy]

I mix my Bornemans mush into a cup with the aquarium water. Then I soak this in garlic and add a heaping teaspoon of sugar into the cup and stir. It's a simple way to add a bacteria source at the same time I'm adding a phosphate source(food). As the food is consumed and broken down into the phosphates the bacteria culture and grow and consume the excess phosphates. A few things that I have noticed are: a consistent bacterial film on the viewing pane that needs to be removed about every three days. Seems different than a typical algae. Brighter colors in the sps. More skimmate production. Better polyp expansion on the sofites-but if I discontinue the sugar they shrivel. LPS in general have a mixed reaction. Some are fine others not so great.

[mattb]

What are you seeing on your clams, any reactions? When I'm dosing vodka/sugar, I'm seeing some definite bacteria on their shells, it's kinda ugly, so I tend to wave it off with my hand.... I notice the same things as you are, except with the softies... I have none... :)

I'm also using vinegar in kalk to get more Ca dosed with the kalk. I'm dosing about 60ml of 5% vinegar into 5 gallons of RO/DI. I'm trying to maximize kalk use before I crank up on the Ca Rx.

After using sugar and vodka, and vinegar in kalk. I'd definitely say that different carbon sources must vary in biological effectiveness. I've switched from vodka to sugar and found that I was able to reduce NO3 faster with a little sugar than the vodka I was dosing. I was dosing about 5ml/day of vodka, and switched to 1/8 teaspoon of sugar per net 25 gallons, every other day . NO3 reduction was reduced to a certain point, ~5ppm, but didn't continue further with the vodka, even though I was increasing vodka dosage every week. I switched over to sugar and in 2 days, my NO3 was down to 2.5ppm(one dose). I'm starting to see some lighting happen, so I'm going to dose less sugar every other day.

My PO4s are 0PPM on deltec/merck. As much as I feed, I've never had any measurable PO4s, though I do need to clean my skimmers necks every other day...

[Energy]

Clams haven't been effected by the skimmer or sugar dosing. My sps have lightened considerably. Interesting observation on the different strains of bacteria that each carbon source may spur. I have used vinegar with my kalk in the past but no longer run kalk.I keep my calcium lower between 380-400 and alk between 9-12 dkh. SPS growth has been better than when my parameters were elevated and calcium was at 500 ppm.

[mattb]

It's only a guess... it's been a long time since I've looked at bacteria under a microscope.

[deathmatch782]

How oversized should someone go on a skimmer for this?

[mattb]

I wouldn't say you need to go oversized, just make sure the skimmer is relatively efficient and effective (good, consistently small bubbles/good contact time and a lot of processing)...

[Energy]

On the other hand an undersized skimmer will promote cyano growth. I had that problem prior to the Volcanoe going on-line. Like mattb said the key is a good skimmer. A little too large is better than a little too small.

[superman]

Gotta agree with Energy, I would go big on a skimmer in any application, that way you know you aren't teetering on the edge of inadequacy. A fun little side conversation does come to mind though. There are those that load there tanks so full of coral that the coral outcompetes the cyano bacteria, nuisance algae etc. for food. This is (what I believe) to be the reason why we sometimes see awesome reef tanks teaming with corals that has filtration that seems irrefutably undersized.

[Energy]

How's the color on those tanks. The corals may outcompete the cyano but phosphates and nitrates may still be an issue which leads to poor coloration. Also those tanks usually(but not always) have a small bioload. Another point- how many of those tanks have any of us seen in person? I've never seen one in real life - although I have seen the pictures. Makes you wonder how much photography skills play apart of the equation.