Joculator angelfish breeding and rearing?

Discussion in 'Aquatics Breeding (Fish, coral, inverts)' started by Chad Vossen, Dec 14, 2015.

  1. Chad Vossen

    Chad Vossen Vossen kinda rhymes with awesome
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Eden Prairie
    Fishies collected:
    40,570
    Special thanks to Jonty for allowing me to collect eggs and have some fun :)

    Here's the full tank video

    [Youtube]2UAkjE57NMQ[/Youtube]

    Now that we're moved into a new place with a year lease, it's time to start playing with fish larvae again. I've been researching the dwarf angelfish for awhile, and I'm seeing researchers and professional hobbyist have success with flame angels and venuesta angels using only cultured copepods. So the possibility of raising the joculator is doable.

    Photos of the pair taken shortly before spawning. Female is plump with eggs.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In anticipation of the spawn, I place a screen filter sock on the drain
    [​IMG]

    Just 10 minutes before the lights are out completely, at 9:50pm give or take 5 minutes, they'll spawn. They even spawn in the same area of the tank.
    [youtube]ert9voAkwrA[/youtube]

    On Saturday night I collected 50 viable eggs, and 100 viable eggs on Sunday night. Fertilized eggs will float, while infertile eggs will sink, making it easy to sort the good from the bad. I do seem to loose some fertile eggs to fungus, which could be cleaned with a peroxide solution if I need more larvae.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The eggs from Saturday night had already hatched by 7pm Sunday. Larvae are born with no mouth, eyes, digestive system... Just a body attached to a yoke sack.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. patent

    patent Ok Moderator
    BOD Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2007
    Messages:
    3,910
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    Eagan
    Fishies collected:
    13,273
  3. cypho

    cypho I contributed!
    Lifetime Member Event Committee

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Minnetonka
    Fishies collected:
    6,907
    What do you plan on feeding them?

    The stories I have seen about raising angels have all used wild plankton which rules out landlocked folks like us. Has anyone succeeded with angels on cultured foods, or are you hoping to be the first?

    Good luck.

    Also, dibs on CB joculators if you succeed (and sell them for a more reasonable price than WC fish).
     
  4. BEAV9900

    BEAV9900 Senior Member
    TCMAS Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,933
    Likes Received:
    57
    Location:
    MINNEAPOLIS
    Fishies collected:
    11,411
    haha searched "captive bred flame angel" and first article is a RC and guess who the 2nd post is.... VOSSEN

    I thought I remembered you had done this before with the flame!


    how are you getting the eggs? is Jonty collecting them or are you on tank duty as well?
     
  5. OP
    Chad Vossen

    Chad Vossen Vossen kinda rhymes with awesome
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Eden Prairie
    Fishies collected:
    40,570
    Flame angelfish are used in aquaculture facilities as "lab mice" to practice on. Entirely on cultured copepods.
    Karen had a success with Venuesta entirely on Parvo copepods as well.
    Bali aquarich claims they are raising their angels on cultured pods, but won't say which.
    An aquarist at an aquarium is raising larger angelfish in pretzel jars and parvo copepods too.
    Like I said, it's doable. Still slim chances though.

    I am feeding Parvo copepods, and may supplement with other species as they get older.
     
  6. OP
    Chad Vossen

    Chad Vossen Vossen kinda rhymes with awesome
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Eden Prairie
    Fishies collected:
    40,570
    I go visit Jon's tank and collect the eggs myself. The fish spawn like clockwork too, so it's predictable.
     
  7. BlacknBlue2

    BlacknBlue2 I contributed!
    Lifetime Member Event Committee

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Ellsworth,WI
    Fishies collected:
    7,172
    I just saw a posting for these Angelfish, were talking a 4 figure fish here, holy moly. Chad if you can make this work you have what could turn out to be 1 hell of a cash cow on your hands.
     
  8. ArcKatana

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2014
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Mn
    Fishies collected:
    0
    I'd bet a dollar that a combo platter of tonsa, parvo (any species) and tisbe plus whatever else you've got laying around would work for them.
     
  9. OP
    Chad Vossen

    Chad Vossen Vossen kinda rhymes with awesome
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Eden Prairie
    Fishies collected:
    40,570
    Blue zoo prices are really out of the ballpark, these angelfish are typically in the $600 range. Still, good money if I manage to raise a bunch. :)
     
  10. BlacknBlue2

    BlacknBlue2 I contributed!
    Lifetime Member Event Committee

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Ellsworth,WI
    Fishies collected:
    7,172
  11. Bschowa

    Bschowa I contributed!
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,127
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Big lake
    Fishies collected:
    8,454
    If these are able to be raised at a decent rate( sounds like they breed every night?) at what point does the market become saturated with them to the point where they are no longer at that price range?

    Is the reason they are 600$ because the hobby is only allowed to import a certain number?
     
  12. Bschowa

    Bschowa I contributed!
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,127
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Big lake
    Fishies collected:
    8,454
    More so just wondering out of curiosity.

    I would think basic supply and demand has more to do with high prices than the looks of a certain fish (although I'm sure that is part of it)

    What would be a starting point for the babies you possibly raise and would that sustain itself throughout the year after, 5 years after? If you were the only one to ever successful breed time after time would it still hold up its price? Or would it become like the flame angel that you can now pick up for less than 60$
     
  13. jlanger

    jlanger "The North Remembers"
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    3,167
    Likes Received:
    364
    Location:
    New Richmond, WI
    Fishies collected:
    27,469
    What sets the price with the Joculator Angelfish is the small distribution area of the fish in the wild. Being that they are limited to a couple of islands on the eastern side of the Indian Ocean, they are seldom collected and imported. The Flame Angelfish, on the other hand, has an incredible large native distribution covering much of the western Pacific Ocean up to Hawaii; therefore more often collected and imported.

    The Joculator Angelfish has been one of my favorites ever since I first saw a picture of it in the Angelfishes and Butterflyfishes book that came out around 2000. So I've been excited each time I have seen one come available; let alone a spawning pair!
    Chad's excited too; as I received a few messages, pictures and the video late last night!

    Keep up the great work, Chad!
     
  14. OP
    Chad Vossen

    Chad Vossen Vossen kinda rhymes with awesome
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Eden Prairie
    Fishies collected:
    40,570
    Initially, I could sell the captive bred angels for above market prices. Probably bottom out around $300 after a few years..

    The reason they are so expensive is due to them not being imported very often. They come from a remote area that's not collected from on a regular basis.

    I really don't expect to start pumping out any significant numbers. They are releasing probably 500-1000 eggs a night, however the challenges of raising them will significantly affect the success rate. The amount of effort to raise a relatively small number of fish will demand a high price. Only when we can refine the technique and become more efficient, will we see the prices start to fall.
     
  15. jlanger

    jlanger "The North Remembers"
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    3,167
    Likes Received:
    364
    Location:
    New Richmond, WI
    Fishies collected:
    27,469
    For those that haven't listened to the Reef Threads podcast #253 discussing the recent success with captive breeding the Yellow Tangs, you can check it out here.
    They discuss how much time and effort it took for them to find the correct environment, diet and husbandry to make their work a success. Sometimes, one little change can set you back months before making a small step forward.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Bschowa

    Bschowa I contributed!
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,127
    Likes Received:
    33
    Location:
    Big lake
    Fishies collected:
    8,454
    That's awesome, congrats and good luck with raising them. thank you both for the knowledge. I'm glad to hear that the more rarely imported fish will still catch a decent price even after they are much easier to get with being tank raised, that leaves me to hope that people will continue to breed these types of fish even after the initial shock of having them sitting at the fish store and not being a special order is over and we can one day cut way back what we collect from the wild and still have rare fish in our tanks.

    Good luck chad I'm sure if anyone can do it your the man!
     
  17. BlacknBlue2

    BlacknBlue2 I contributed!
    Lifetime Member Event Committee

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Ellsworth,WI
    Fishies collected:
    7,172
    I would love to invest money into this venture if I could afford it. And it just dawned on me that if Chad has success in breeding these angels, then we could theoretically say that their would be no need to capture wild ones anymore. It will take awhile but its completely doable.
     
  18. Jonty

    Jonty I contributed!
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,872
    Likes Received:
    83
    Fishies collected:
    14,545
    It going to be fun to track this, good luck Chad
     
  19. BlacknBlue2

    BlacknBlue2 I contributed!
    Lifetime Member Event Committee

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    48
    Location:
    Ellsworth,WI
    Fishies collected:
    7,172
    I'm wondering if their is a way to get a grant from Macna to promote and help get a program like this off the ground. I mean think about it, no more taking wild angels from the ocean, a completely tank-bred fish that will be heartier than its wild brethren. It would be no different than maricultured and aquacultured corals. Saving our oceans has to start somewhere. Why not Minnesota?
     
  20. OP
    Chad Vossen

    Chad Vossen Vossen kinda rhymes with awesome
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,478
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Eden Prairie
    Fishies collected:
    40,570
    Joculator angelfish 24 hours after hatching, or 48 hours after spawn.
    [​IMG]

    Parvocalanus copepods
    [​IMG]

    [youtube]oD7QYxiVfyo[/youtube]

    Adult parvo copepods
    [youtube]rlZlGr-WpZA[/youtube]
     

Share This Page