Two new builds. Two headaches. What are we doing wrong? (1 Viewer)

[notsocivil_engineer]

As a newbie I started with project reef rock 2.1 which is now discontinued - just following BRS vids and using marine pure without doing solid research. Tank is ok - but good lord do I regret it and wish I had gone with at least the porous dry rock. I keep telling myself if I swap it out we need to do it now - without following through. This thread spawned another moment like that! Not even sure how I would do it safely, but seeing what TBS offers makes me eager to switch. That's really impressive that they can ship it packaged wet! Seems to be worth every penny. Hopefully it adds that special something for your future sps!

 

[jlanger]

... seeing what TBS offers makes me eager to switch. That's really impressive that they can ship it packaged wet! Seems to be worth every penny.

When Karen showed me the TBS rock, I was also surprised that they shipped it wet. Spending the entire shipment submerged in water is likely key as to why the rock had no die off and associated smell. The one downfall to shipping the rock wet is that there's a limit to how much rock is shipped in one box; 25 pounds. "Traditional" live rock orders averaged around 40-50 pounds of live rock per box. The added weight of the water shipped takes away from the amount of rock shipped. After all was shipped and paid, the cost of the TBS live rock came out to about $8 per pound.

 

[Jonty]

I have never had problems with dry rock, but I have a slightly different approach for what I have seen you guys.
1. I purchase the rock and place it directly in 55-gallon garbage cans and fill it with saltwater and throw a powerhead in each bin.
2. I then dose about 2 ml of ammonia a day for a week and throw is some bacteria mix not worried about the brand
3. I let this sit and stew for three to four weeks and the test for nitrates and phosphates, which are usually through the roof at this time.
4. I then start dosing lanthanum chloride until phosphates are 0 or dam close to it.
5. I then rinse all the rock thoroughly in fresh saltwater to get them clean, and them place back in bins with fresh saltwater and let the stew for another week test for phosphate if there is phosphate still present I repeat the dosing and test until the rock is consistently not leaching Phosphate. I think rock is a significant phosphate sink and in new tanks, it just leaches out for a very long period creating a myriad of issues.
Using this method, I have had quite good success with dry rock. I have never bothered with the bleaching and acid wash process as I don't believe it addresses the deep nutrient sink in the rock but rather cleans the surface really well and slowly over time the rest just leaches out causing the short term success and then the head-scratching moment of why am I having problems now after a few months.
I am by no means an expert, but I thought I would just throughout my process.

 

[jlanger]

Thanks for your insights, @Jonty.
It’s beneficial to hear about methods that produced good results with dry rock. Even though we’re beyond the point of using your method, it may help other systems that are starting up; or our own future builds.

Nice to see you’re still peeking in around here.

 

[KJoFan]

I did something pretty similar to @Jonty when I started mine. I put all my old dry rock in a bin with saltwater, a heater and powerhead and let it sit awhile. I didn't dose ammonia because there was enough old organic material on the rock I figured it had enough junk to get the cycle going. Once I had it cooked up for a couple months, I dosed lanthanum chloride until phosphates were showing consistently at zero or near. I don't know how long I cooked my rock before starting up my tank, but I'd say at least 3 months or better.

I suppose it's possible I didn't use enough/long enough, but I do think I drew a good amount of phosphates out of the rock. And I have had some GHA issues that probably lend to the fact I didn't pull ALL phosphates out.

However, I don't think our issue is nutrient related, but rather some kind of microfauna missing.

But, to be fair, I have also seen others start their tanks with dry rock and have more success than we've been seeing, or seemingly so. Nothing says those folks didn't add a piece or two of live rock to their system and just didn't bother to mention it either.

 

[abhishek]

Well I started mine with dry rocks and this is what it was after 3 years .

But I had 15-20 lbs of Fiji live rocks in my sump . Wish I had known you are looking for live rocks as am selling mine from the sump .

 

[KJoFan]

Well I started mine with dry rocks and this is what it was after 3 years .

But I had 15-20 lbs of Fiji live rocks in my sump . Wish I had known you are looking for live rocks as am selling mine from the sump .

This is what I think happens with a lot of people that are successful starting with dry rock. They don't mention they had some existing live rock they put in the system as well, even if only in the sump. So, I think it can be a bit misleading to see successful dry rock systems. I'm pretty sure @jlanger and I started with dry rock and dry rock only.

I don't recommend it.

 

[vikingr8der]

I cannot speak for starting a system with only dry rock, as all my previous systems have been pretty much someone else's system that was getting torn down etc off craigslist or the like, but i can attest to the success I've had with my current system with TBS rock. I decided after research that any downsides with using aquacultured rock did not outweigh the benefits. I have a total of 200 lbs from them. 150 to start and another 50 like 6 months later because I needed some more to fill in the scape. One of the biggest things I noticed with that amount of rock and the type was there was pretty much no cycle at setting up the tank. I remember getting little cycles moving a tank, but the only thing I did with this rock was smell each rock and remove one or two sponges that didn't make it and put it into the tank that already had water in it. Testing often, never had any ammonia. Did have some hair algae after a few weeks, but I have a large clean up crew. Currently have sps in the 120 with fully encrusted and growing frags from @Flounder and lps and softies in the bottom 40. One of the major reasons I went this direction, was as much as I enjoy corals, I almost enjoy having an entire ecosystem more. Yes, I have a few crabs that still need to be removed when I get around to it (someone likes zoas, they disappear) but I also have dozens of other types of specie in the the tank, from various copepods that cover the glass to a red mithrax crab that grown to baseball size. I know everyone has different goals with their tanks and with so many methods these days of running a tank there is no one right way to do it, but based on my experience, the more variety we get in the tanks, the easier success will come to us.

 

[jlanger]

Update time...

I had added a single piece of the live rock into my sump back on July 19th. After a few days and nothing seemed amiss (no ammonia spikes or unknown hitchhikers), I added the rest of the rock to my sump on July 22nd. At this time, I started dosing Live Rock Enhance after talking with Marc Levenson after a live stream where he mentioned his use of it. After the rock was in my sump, I noticed the sponges and tunicates really inflated and started to respond. There were still a handful of barnacles on the rock that I could see grasping for food; that's cool.
I also noticed the microfauna in my sump seemed to enjoy having something terrestrial in the sump. I have baby trochus snails all over the place; even inside my protein skimmer. The micro-brittle stars are more active. I have even seen amphipods crawling over the rock. When I just had the plastic mesh available for the inverts, I didn't see much activity on/in the foreign materials. They seem to be as thrilled with the new rock as I have been.

Here's some photos of the live rock added to my sump.
This is the drain section of my sump; just beneath my ATS (when installed). The white sponge is growing over the past few weeks. The two orange spots are a small anemone of some sort. The dark purple splotches are tunicates being blurred by the water surface. On the far left of the photo there appears to be a blurry skull-like feature, that is a small LPS coral of some kind with it's polyps creating the blurry haze; at least three of the rocks have them on it.



This is the top rock in the photo above flipped over.
You can see how much sponge is growing on the rocks. The white sponge is the most prevalent while there is also orange, blue, yellow and red sponge forms on the rock. I haven't figured out quite yet what the deep pink growth is in the center; maybe some macro photos would help.



This is the biggest rock from the box; 8" by 6".
I removed whatever the stick-like thing was attached to it; nothing of value with it. This rock has some small yellow ball sponges growing on it and well as the purple tunicates. There are also some small white/clear anemones that retract when the lights are on.
The second photo shows the backside of that same rock. There's evidence of tube worms and tiny feather dusters on the bottom of the rock. A couple of my micro-brittle stars have found this rock to their liking as they're usually found crawling around; there's one in the photo.





But the best evidence that this rock is doing something to my system is the fact that some of the montipora corals are not crashing after a week or two. I added some more monti frags after the Fourth of July holiday. They all started to lose their color after the first week. Since then, all of the frags are still alive; not all looking great, but they're not dead. A couple of the green montipora frags have turned the corner and are coloring back up and even adding new growth. It's not like my old system yet, but it's progress. Here's a photo where you can see how much of the coral faded and died before it started to gain some color and start growing again.



And furthermore...

While I was in Duluth attending the LSMAC Speaker Event, I spoke with Sanjay Joshi about the dead rock versus live rock method to starting a reef tank. (If you remember, he was mentioned in the video with Mike Paletta about issues that they were experiencing with dead rock.).
Sanjay was very sympathetic to my story and detailed his experience with dead rock and live rock. He clearly advocates using some live rock (it doesn't have to be all live rock) when cycling and starting a new reef system. Dead rock lacks the variety of sponges, worms and pods that can be found on live rock and it can not be duplicated with bottles of bacteria and bottles of specific pods. When I mentioned about how most suppliers don't carry live rock anymore, he sighed in agreement as he misses the days of having wild collected rock from Fiji, Vanuatu or Tonga. He's not quite a fan of the "painted" life rock, although he is supportive of the artificial rock being farmed in ocean waters and being harvested as live rock.

After this update, I'm sure Karen's going to be adding live rock ASAP.

 

[abhishek]

Am trying a new filtration system in my new build - complete true cryptic zone with minimal flow and no light whatsoever coupled with daily feeding of sponge power and benepets( no it’s not hoax) . I have had numerous discussion with Steve Tyree , the father of Cryptic fuge filtration and it’s designed with his inputs and seed rocks from his 15 year
Old legendary system . Also it has rocks from Adam @battlecorals , Jared @rockymountainfrags , pacific east aquaculture .
It’s amazing how much sponge growth I have in 3 months following Steve Tyree advice and am trying to start selling cryptic rocks from my system to help others start their system too .
But it’s not a magic bullet of just dropping them in the sump and hoping they survive . Feeding them the right amount with perfect flow and no light is the key to the success .

 

[KJoFan]

@jlanger Mostly you've just made me regret not picking up my share of rock today. LOL It really does look awesome with all kinds of diverse life to it. And I'm glad to see your corals are taking a turn for the better. I think it may be safe to say our idea of adding some true live rock to our systems was a positive move.

I, on the other hand am feeling fairly defeated. I am still battling the algae. If anything I maybe can say that it's slowing down it's reproduction, but certainly isn't going away either. I've started using Vibrant to see if I can get ahead of it, but past experience hasn't been great with the product either.

On top of my ongoing algae issue, my Pintail wrasse turned up dead the other day which was a bummer. Then tonight when I got home my Copperband was dead and one LED fixture has gone rogue and gone off programming. So...needless to say I'm ready to set fire to the whole works and just throw in the towel

Anyway, this has turned into a build thread update for me, and a downer of a post.

@abhishek I like your cryptic zone idea, keep us updated on how you think it's impacting your system once it's up and going.

 

[TTNuge]

@jlanger can you tell me about how much shipping was for your rock? You got just the 1 box of 25# correct? I see they mention a minimum shipping charge of 100# so does that mean it cost the same to ship your 1 box as it would have to ship 2? I'm thinking I want to seed the new tank with 25# but trying to decide if it's worth the hassle to find someone else who wants some in order to split shipping costs.

Thanks

 

[jlanger]

@jlanger Mostly you've just made me regret not picking up my share of rock today.

I thought as much; it's still here and available if you reconsider.
So sorry to hear about the rest of your post. UGH!!!

@jlanger can you tell me about how much shipping was for your rock? You got just the 1 box of 25# correct? I see they mention a minimum shipping charge of 100# so does that mean it cost the same to ship your 1 box as it would have to ship 2? I'm thinking I want to seed the new tank with 25# but trying to decide if it's worth the hassle to find someone else who wants some in order to split shipping costs.

Thanks

Air freight for the one box of 25 pounds of rock was under $60.

As Karen and I were "testing the waters" of sourcing live rock, we went in only looking to have a single box shipped. Had we both known the quality of the rock, I'm sure both of us would've ordered more rock. I don't have an answer to the cost of multiple boxes/100 pounds question, but if you send them an e-mail, Deb will answer your questions; she's polite and very responsive.

 

[KJoFan]

I thought as much; it's still here and available if you reconsider.
So sorry to hear about the rest of your post. UGH!!!


Air freight for the one box of 25 pounds of rock was under $60.

As Karen and I were "testing the waters" of sourcing live rock, we went in only looking to have a single box shipped. Had we both known the quality of the rock, I'm sure both of us would've ordered more rock. I don't have an answer to the cost of multiple boxes/100 pounds question, but if you send them an e-mail, Deb will answer your questions; she's polite and very responsive.

@TTNuge I'm not sure of the answer to your question either. I have emailed Deb as well about different airport options for me (Sioux Falls being closer), but it would take over 24 hours to arrive there vs the 5-6 hours it takes to get to MSP. I honestly don't know how detrimental that would be to the life on the rock. Perhaps, if you're serious about ordering we can work out a partnership. The only reason I haven't picked up my portion from Jason was literally only the distance to pick it up. Living in the far southwest corner of MN makes for a long haul to New Richmond. If you're located in Chaska as stated, that's much more reasonable for me considering. It's completely up to you though.

@jlanger any thoughts on 24 hour transit time being detrimental knowing the life on the rock now?

 

[TTNuge]

@TTNuge I'm not sure of the answer to your question either. I have emailed Deb as well about different airport options for me (Sioux Falls being closer), but it would take over 24 hours to arrive there vs the 5-6 hours it takes to get to MSP. I honestly don't know how detrimental that would be to the life on the rock. Perhaps, if you're serious about ordering we can work out a partnership. The only reason I haven't picked up my portion from Jason was literally only the distance to pick it up. Living in the far southwest corner of MN makes for a long haul to New Richmond. If you're located in Chaska as stated, that's much more reasonable for me considering. It's completely up to you though.

@jlanger any thoughts on 24 hour transit time being detrimental knowing the life on the rock now?

I am in Chaska. I have an email in to Deb to see if she can estimate the cost differences between 1 and 2 boxes. I'll let you know what I find out.

I am looking for at least 25# myself. If you want 25# that would be 2 full boxes. If you wanted less than 25# I would probably be interested in a bit more to make the order a full 50#.

 

[jlanger]

[USER=2264]@jlanger any thoughts on 24 hour transit time being detrimental knowing the life on the rock now?[/USER]

Seeing as how the rock was completely submerged in a one [double] bag and then a second [double] bag was filled with water to fill the box, I would think the outer water layer would provide great insulation for the inner bag. As I posted when I received the rock, there was no smell from the rock or any die-off. I suppose I could've taken a temperature reading of the water in the bags, but that would've taken some thinking ahead.[/user]

 

[KJoFan]

I am in Chaska. I have an email in to Deb to see if she can estimate the cost differences between 1 and 2 boxes. I'll let you know what I find out.

I am looking for at least 25# myself. If you want 25# that would be 2 full boxes. If you wanted less than 25# I would probably be interested in a bit more to make the order a full 50#.

Yeah, let me know, no rush or pressure. Just putting the idea out there.

Seeing as how the rock was completely submerged in a one [double] bag and then a second [double] bag was filled with water to fill the box, I would think the outer water layer would provide great insulation for the inner bag. As I posted when I received the rock, there was no smell from the rock or any die-off. I suppose I could've taken a temperature reading of the water in the bags, but that would've taken some thinking ahead.

I do recall what you said, I just wasn't sure if there would be much more of an impact on survivability with 6 hours vs 24+ of transit. But, this time of year, probably not a big issue. Dead of winter might be a different story.

 

[TTNuge]

Richard just responded with the following which is a little different than what was mentioned earlier in the thread.

"All the airlines have a 100# minimum charge…these days around $100…one pound or 100….same charge..…...MSP is easy…Direct flight Southwest!"

@KJoFan let me know if you want any. I am going to order a minimum of 25# for myself but could go as much as 35-40# if you are looking for a smaller amount. Would like to get the order in this week, I know sometimes it takes them a while to gather it if the weather is bad. Feel free to PM me if you like so we don't clutter up the thread.

 

[jlanger]

MSP is easy…Direct flight Southwest!"

Pick up is extremely easy and convenient!
Just take the 24th Ave. exit, go north towards the airport, follow the frontage road around to the intersection and the cargo warehouse is right there. I was in and out of there in about five minutes.

 

[jlanger]

And I'm finding a few new live critters on the rock as I turn them around to get a look at the sponge growth. The deep pink stuff that I couldn't identify earlier is another type of tunicate/sea squirt. Tonight, I found more limpets, two fleshy bivalves that are attached to the rock and I just found a small black urchin hiding beneath a type of tube worm; still no octopuses.