Two new builds. Two headaches. What are we doing wrong? (1 Viewer)

[H2OHOH]

1st reef attempt, 60 gal, all established Fiji rock, successes in 3-4 months

Upgrade to 120, all dry rocks...failed, sold tank, and stuck to fish. Epic fail...I grew more algae than a jlanger scrubber

Took break, did 120 again, mostly dry rock and seeded with small amounts of established rock. Didn’t have great success, but did not have patience. Sold and retired again.

Would go to frag swaps, had no reef, and felt I was being left out...so decided to go slow and do a 50 breeder. Had some successes. Dry rock with seeded small to medium amounts of established rock.

Started gaining confidence and upgraded to 80 deep blue rimless. Used rock from 50, got some additional dry rock, and went real slow. Have been doing much better

I have access to one of the leading reef minds, I think the established live rock is huge...just like jlanger explains. I also thinking adding live things slowly, as things can balance out in your ecosystem in a box is good.

No one has asked me to speak at MACNA yet, but I am not saying I wouldn’t

 

[ironman]

I'm just curious if you watched the video that was posted at the beginning of this thread at all? I think Jason also had a pretty good explanation of our reasoning and thought process behind it. It really comes down to the fact that we are convinced there is something in long established live rock that is missing from starting a tank with dry rock, regardless of how you washed it/treated it/cycled it etc.

It's pretty clear you don't subscribe to this same theory and that's fine, we can't all agree all the time. But, you seem to be asking for more information, and I'm not sure there's more to give at this point. Are you going to be convinced even if we did find more evidence?

The video just parroted what has already been said. I'm not sure why you are being so defensive, I'm merely trying to wrap my head around your hypothesis as it doesn't check out with the information provided. Ultimately, I'm always looking to learn, and part of that is asking questions.

 

[KJoFan]

The video just parroted what has already been said. I'm not sure why you are being so defensive, I'm merely trying to wrap my head around your hypothesis as it doesn't check out with the information provided, and if there is something I don't know, I'm always looking to learn.

I’m not trying to be defensive. A couple more folks have chimed in with their experiences that seem to support the idea that adding a source of live rock/sand to their new systems has led them to better/faster success.

I know for me, experiences of other reefers weigh heavily into decisions I make for my own system.

Can you explain more how the info presented doesn’t jive with the overall hypothesis? Maybe there’s something we can be more explicit about.


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[DarkSky]

Here is a video of my tank at the 8 month mark for reference.

Damn, that looks great Adam!

 

[ironman]

I’m not trying to be defensive. A couple more folks have chimed in with their experiences that seem to support the idea that adding a source of live rock/sand to their new systems has led them to better/faster success.

I know for me, experiences of other reefers weigh heavily into decisions I make for my own system.

Can you explain more how the info presented doesn’t jive with the overall hypothesis? Maybe there’s something we can be more explicit about.


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Absolutely adding live rock and/or sand, to a new tank is beneficial, that's not something I'm even willing to debate, and clearly we are both on the same page there. I'm just not understanding how adding it could have prevented the issues you had in the beginning. Are you running under the assumption that the bacteria breaks down the nutrients before the algae has a chance to use it?

EDIT: Another question is, how long and what perimeters did you use for the bleach soak?

 

[Mordim]

I'm interested to see how out works out for everyone.

I believe the love rock will certainly speed up the process.

I still don't think it is for me except. For me at least, I don't find the risk of pests worth it. I'm willing to wait the extra time. My tank has been doing great. It took longer for sps to do well but it's working (knock on wood).

I started with brs reef saver rock, dry sand, Dr Tim's, and chaeto fuge.

I am interested to try a small tank with life rock as an experiment. Someday maybe.

 

[KJoFan]

Absolutely adding live rock and/or sand, to a new tank is beneficial, that's not something I'm even willing to debate, and clearly we are both on the same page there. I'm just not understanding how adding it could have prevented the issues you had in the beginning. Are you running under the assumption that the bacteria breaks down the nutrients before the algae has a chance to use it?

EDIT: Another question is, how long and what perimeters did you use for the bleach soak?

Oh, maybe this is where we’re getting confused. My algae issues are secondary to the lack of live rock in my system to start. I’ve just been documenting that journey as well.

I was simply looking at coral health and struggling maintaining corals for this first 18 months. It seems like a tank started with live rock is better able to support thriving corals sooner than one started without.

There may also be a correlation with those early nuisances like dinos and cyano.

Regarding the bleach question, I have never bleached my rock so I can’t really help you on that. I started my rock that had dried out from a previous system in tubs with just saltwater and heat and circulation and some phosphate remover before starting my system. This probably speaks to my algae issues and the rock harboring nutrients.


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[Fishfoo]

Curious to hear what @Leicester56 has to say regarding this topic. I know he started his new build around the same time as both of you and I believe used all/predominately dry rock. I’ve stopped by and checked out his tank a couple of times since and it looks fantastic (no algae, corals thriving, etc).

Will, would you mind running through your thought process and the steps you took when setting up your new tank? And also if there was any live rock/sand or previous media used from another tank?

 

[BlindSwordsman]

I'm sitting here with my humongous cup of coffee, waiting for a live shipment that was stuck in CA for a whole day since Tues, and I think I'm high from the coffee already so I will chime in here. I usually don't comment on these threads since I know I am quite backward and what people do here are quite 'high tech' and very much, experts, so what do I know, right? But the guide for idiots that I followed when I started every tank told me to dump in some saltwater, and add in rock and sand, and wait for for 4-6 months for the cycle to complete. It said if I used base rock and/or dead sand, then I had to seed it with at least some small amount of live sand or live rock in order to turn my base rocks and sand live. From what I gathered, it emphasized on the importance of live rocks. Live rocks were (or should I say 'are') one of the main, fundamental elements of the filtration system along with deep sand bed (I actually don't have a deep sand bed), etc. So when I sit here and listen to my 50-90s music, and read about people cycle their tanks almost overnight with manufactured bacteria package, I was impressed. I don't know what are in those packages, but maybe they chemically help stabilizing the water for the moment but in reality, they lack the little itsy bitsy microorganisms like pods and worms and such that make a live rock live in the first place? Like I said, I don't know what are in those things. In my opinion, dumping something in to stabilize/fix the issue (e.g. hydrogen peroxide, etc) is a quick fix and it probably can not eliminate the problem from its root and the problem might show up again (I personally wouldn't dump hydrogen peroxide into my system. Put your hand into the solution for a while and see how that goes. Having the fish and corals submerged in that stuff? I'll pass ) I don't think live rocks can cure everything but they help IFF you maintain them. Do they help getting rid of algae? ... Thinking ... Probably yes, probably no. If I maintain them well, and they are free of waste build up, the microorganism thingies help cleaning up the rest, I have a clean tank, no extra food for algae to grow. So probably Yes. If I just let things slide, no cleaning up, do what some guy I know (he does the automatic feeds twice a day when at work, then feeds tons more when at home, all with water in strong circulation and foods blown everywhere, shines the tank with an excessive amount of lights, thinking all expensive and strong stuff must be good), then my tank is screwed. That is my 1 cent opinion of the day. Enough rambling from me. You all have a good one! I need to prepare more coffee and check on my order again. Urghhhh!!!!!

 

[jlanger]

Curious to hear what @Leicester56 has to say regarding this topic. I know he started his new build around the same time as both of you and I believe used all/predominately dry rock.

From what I recall, Will’s tank has been doing well as he has a LPS and softy reef; not sure if he added any SPS corals.
I have mentioned that my LPS corals have done well since they’ve been returned to my system. The lobophyllia corals have not experienced any issues. In fact, two of the corals had damaged polyps from attacks by other lobos and they have recovered with new tissue. The main issue with my new system was that the SPS frags bleached out and crashed.
I’m not aware if Will had any other issues or added any live rock/sand at any point. I would like to hear from him also. (Although, I have already talked with him earlier today.)

 

[ironman]

Oh, maybe this is where we’re getting confused. My algae issues are secondary to the lack of live rock in my system to start. I’ve just been documenting that journey as well.

I was simply looking at coral health and struggling maintaining corals for this first 18 months. It seems like a tank started with live rock is better able to support thriving corals sooner than one started without.

There may also be a correlation with those early nuisances like dinos and cyano.

Regarding the bleach question, I have never bleached my rock so I can’t really help you on that. I started my rock that had dried out from a previous system in tubs with just saltwater and heat and circulation and some phosphate remover before starting my system. This probably speaks to my algae issues and the rock harboring nutrients.


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Ah, I was going off jlanger's statement that you both started with new tanks, rocks, and filters, and had issues. I just re-read the OP and don't see any mention of bleach, so that must have come into play later in the thread. Anyway. If jlanger didn't bleach, acid wash, or even cycle his live rock for several weeks with numerous large water changes to get rid of all the organics which likely was the cause of his issue.

Your coral issues were, as you suggest, likely the result of the tank not being established enough, and again, as you suggest, live rock or some other method of seeding can drastically decrease the time it takes to establish a reef tank. We were obviously on two different wavelengths earlier in the thread.

 

[KJoFan]

Ah, I was going off jlanger's statement that you both started with new tanks, rocks, and filters, and had issues. I just re-read the OP and don't see any mention of bleach, so that must have come into play later in the thread. Anyway. If jlanger didn't bleach, acid wash, or even cycle his live rock for several weeks with numerous large water changes to get rid of all the organics which likely was the cause of his issue.

Your coral issues were, as you suggest, likely the result of the tank not being established enough, and again, as you suggest, live rock or some other method of seeding can drastically decrease the time it takes to establish a reef tank. We were obviously on two different wavelengths earlier in the thread.

Yeah I think we're on the same track now. When I started my tank, I did not bleach or acid wash my old live rock. I did cycle it for several weeks (a few months probably) in tubs and did use the phosphate remover some but didn't necessarily test phosphates to determine if I pulled them all out. Obviously I did not. So that's my bad.

And yes, I think had Jason and I both introduced some live rock from the start we might have seen success a bit earlier than we have. Typically the rule of thumb, if there is one, is that a year in you should be able to support acros. That was not the case for me, so...I think I stunted my maturity, as did Jason, by the lack of real life at the beginning of our systems.

So, by bringing in that live rock now, we're hoping to stabilize things and start to see coral health and growth take off as well as just see more diverse life overall in our tanks.

 

[jlanger]

Ah, I was going off jlanger's statement that you both started with new tanks, rocks, and filters, and had issues. I just re-read the OP and don't see any mention of bleach, so that must have come into play later in the thread. Anyway. If jlanger didn't bleach, acid wash, or even cycle his live rock for several weeks with numerous large water changes to get rid of all the organics which likely was the cause of his issue.

Your coral issues were, as you suggest, likely the result of the tank not being established enough, and again, as you suggest, live rock or some other method of seeding can drastically decrease the time it takes to establish a reef tank. We were obviously on two different wavelengths earlier in the thread.

My rock went through two bleach treatments for an extended period over one month. The rock was rinsed and bathed in a RODI water with water treatment solutions to remove the bleach until the smell was gone and then allowed to sit out in the sun for a solid week.
The rock was added to the display in mid-October 2018. I added bottled bacteria and 'fed' the system with the remnants of thawed frozen foods until livestock was added. Diatoms came and went as expected in mid-November. The ATS unit was seeded with algae at this time. The first corals were brought home around Thanksgiving; my lobophyllia corals and a montipora. A couple of weeks later in December 2018, I brought home the remaining SPS corals that I had saved from the old system. The first fish were added in December also.
The first issues started showing up at the end of January 2019. Lyngbya reared its ugly head and all SPS corals were lost. I tried Red Slime Remover and cut back on the lighting. After a couple of weeks, I removed the ATS unit and dosed Vibrant. A few days later and the lyngbya was gone. With the rock and substrate looking clean again, I added pod cultures and reinstalled the ATS in March. In April, I added new montipora frags and a couple of LPS frags. The SPS frags crashed after a couple of weeks, but all of the LPS corals were doing well. This was when I tested NO3 and PO4 and realized I was pegging zero ppm on both, so I started dosing potassium nitrate. The ATS was too efficient in removing the nitrates so I took it offline a second time in May. With nutrient levels so low, I have been battling small outbreaks of cyano periodically.
And that should bring my journey to the beginning of this thread.

In regards to the rock being the cause of the issues, it was; but not because it wasn't cleaned of organics or cured long enough. If my rock was releasing organics, I would've either had registered nutrient levels from the get-go or an algae bloom on the rocks. I didn't. The dry rock was devoid of the microfauna and bacteria cultures that are present in live rock. If I would've seeded the system with live rock from the start, I could've possibly avoided many of the SPS coral losses I experienced over the six months that I was having those issues.

 

[Gary]

Hi Jason, I didn't read the whole thread back to the beginning, (sorry not enough time in the day), but I can offer this small tidbit of advice. "Ultra Slime" works great to get rid of cyano. It does not stress or hurt the SPS at all and it will definitely take care of that cyano problem without causing more to go wrong. My experience with Vibrant is the same as yours. Afterwards the Cyano starts to set in.

Just my uninformed 2 cents.

 

[Leicester56]

Curious to hear what @Leicester56 has to say regarding this topic. I know he started his new build around the same time as both of you and I believe used all/predominately dry rock. I’ve stopped by and checked out his tank a couple of times since and it looks fantastic (no algae, corals thriving, etc).

Will, would you mind running through your thought process and the steps you took when setting up your new tank? And also if there was any live rock/sand or previous media used from another tank?

I have had a busy summer and have not spent much time on this site. I am going to take a look at the recent posts and then add what I can to the discussion. My tank thrived up until 6 weeks ago when my ATS pump died and I didn’t figure it out for 3 days. The screen is just getting back to normal again, but I lost the few SPS that I had in the system and have some GHA overgrowth. LPS are all fine.

 

[coralreefer]

Just did a quick read of the thread and my current experience is dead on with you @jlanger and @KJoFan. Started my current tank in April with a relatively minimal amount of dry rock that was precured in a saltwater bin for months to get PO3 down below .03ppm in a small tub. I've been keeping reef tanks since 2004 and previously started a tank from dry rock that did very well so I was pretty confident going that route. Now I believe I have lyngbya (or chrysophytes), red cyano, and ostreopsis dinos. I've debated TBS live rock and/or a UV sterilizer.

PO4 was bottoming out on me from the red cyano initially so I've been dosing PO4/NO3 and overall things look like crap.

 

[jlanger]

For those other reefers that are going through a similar experience, I feel for you. This sucks. But it will pass; eventually.
I just passed the one year mark with my rebooted 120gal system in October, so here's a condensed timeline showing the course this episode has taken.

The first couple of months was exciting; new tank, new rock, new substrate, new equipment and bringing home old corals.

By the middle of January, confusion, disappointment and frustration set in as the corals declined and the rock and substrate become covered with lyngbya; killing all of the SPS corals.

After a couple of months combating the lyngbya, cyano and other issues, my tank looked much better in March than it did in January.

By summer, I still wasn't having much luck keeping corals alive. This was when I reached out to @KJoFan about her issues and asked about using the dry rock and bottled bacteria. Karen found the video with Mike Paletta and we decided to order live rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater. I "cycled" the rock in a Brute can for a couple of weeks prior to adding it to my sump. The rock was covered in various sponges, tunicates, squirts and other life that wasn't possible with using dry rock rock and bottled bacterias.

With having the live rock in my sump now for over four months, I have seen a dramatic improvement in my reef. The LPS corals have been doing very well; both Lobophyllia spp. and Goniopora spp. I have added some montipora frags over the past month or so and so far, they're doing okay; which is much better than crashing within a couple of weeks. My rock and substrate are getting covered with coralline algae; so much so that I brought my calcium reactor back online.

I don't feel like I'm completely out of the woods yet, but I feel much better about my reef now and the direction it is heading in.
I'll try to get a FTS sometime soon to compare with other photos above.

 

[Nickz]

Kind of curious what your thoughts are on "it's been a year". Would a year have been enough without the added live rock? I know I have started dry tanks and around the year to year and a half everything started going real well.

 

[KJoFan]

Here’s a current FTS for me. Dinos? And cyano running fairly rampant. I’m closing in on 2 years old with this tank.

Oddly, last I checked nutrients were high and yet I have cyano and dinos and run a UV so.....blah.

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[coralreefer]

Here’s a current FTS for me. Dinos? And cyano running fairly rampant. I’m closing in on 2 years old with this tank.

Oddly, last I checked nutrients were high and yet I have cyano and dinos and run a UV so.....blah.

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Sorry to hear it! I'm curious I wonder what would happen if you removed the sand. It looks like dinos are localized there at least. Did your TBS rock help? Also I'm curious have you ID'd your dinos?

I just ordered Dr. Tim's Refresh and Waste Away. I'm not going to go hard with it but maybe some casual dosing will help turn things around. May do a blackout also.