Cost of the Hobby (4 Viewers)

[bigmax]

First off, my apologies for the rant; I couldn’t help myself. I originally posted this on R2R a few minutes ago, but figured I’d get some local perspectives too. Fire away… I can take the flames.

I’ve been in this hobby for about 45 years, and for fun I even worked one day a week at a fish store in Minneapolis. I fully understand why livestock prices have gone up over the years. But just for reference: I once bought a Clarion and a Black-Banded Angelfish for under $60 each. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $206 today. Availability and other factors play a role, but that’s not the point; the point is that back then an average hobbyist could afford to enjoy the hobby.


What got me going today was seeing a couple of Ecotech MP60s for sale on TCMAS. Nothing wrong with the asking price, but the seller referenced BRS as $900 each for new ones. Nine hundred dollars for a powerhead! At some point we have to ask ourselves what’s happening. I honestly think some of this crosses into addiction territory: the spending, the chasing of the latest gadget, the “new shiny toy” syndrome. Unless someone is truly flush with cash, it’s impossible to justify.


Another example: the new Red Sea ReefControl power unit. Red Sea makes great products, but this is clearly aimed at people who want premium gear for its own sake. I’m running a Kasa power strip that monitors power, offers scheduling, has a solid app, and probably covers 80–90% of the same functionality; for $34 compared to $359. That’s a huge difference for what most hobbyists actually need.


Maybe it’s just me, but from casual observation I’m seeing more “I’m shutting down and selling everything” posts than true newcomers joining in. Are we losing two long-time hobbyists for every new hobbyist we gain? I’m 70 and getting crotchety, so maybe I just don’t get it anymore, but it sure feels like the hobby is pricing out the people who built it.

 

[zoolan70]

Livestock prices have come up because the collection rules have changed dramatically over the year, especially the last 10. These changes are often for the better of the stocks in the wild and for the hobbyist, but they still drive up prices. Where divers used to use cyanide to stun fish and harvest them, they now need to catch them humanely. Where they used to be able to take as many as they wanted to, now they are limited to much lower numbers. etc etc.

Add to that all the other costs - fuel, employees, equipment at the collection point, transport costs from there to a wholesaler, etc, etc, etc.

Finally, there is the changing dynamic of the local fish store. I'm sure you remember from when you worked at a store where the profit margin lived...it was in hard goods, frequently with margins of 300% or more. Then came online sales, and those margins disappeared overnight. Store costs didn't go down...they still need to buy and maintain all the livestock, deal with fish that die, all the money that goes into the infrastructure, etc. In fact, those prices went up far faster than inflation. Now you need to cover all those costs and still make a profit basically on just the livestock...that means high consumer prices.

Finally, there is the captive bred livestock. Don't get me wrong, this had to happen and I'm glad it did. But the prices that some of these places get, and blame it on the 'cost to develop the processes', is criminal. Once the process is worked out, and they are producing a species at scale, they should be cheaper than wild caught.

Now, for the hardware side of the equation - there are always going to be the Ferrari version of a product all the way down to the Yugo version (if you don't get the reference, look it up ). Some people want the latest and greatest ( I will admit, there are certain items where I am that way), and the manufacturers are more than happy to pluck that money from those consumers' wallets. I ran my 500 gallon reef on Chinese black-box lights and Jebao powerheads - it worked perfectly fine, but I didn't have the fancy control that AI light and Ecotech poweheads would have given me. That is an individual's perspective.

The Red Sea controller is an oddball to me...I don't see that anyone will buy it other than newbies have no clue what they are buying. The entire Red Sea ecosystem of equipment is mid-line at best as far as I'm concerned, except for their Rollermat. That is worth every penny.

I agree with you that total number of marine aquarists is dropping. I don't know if it 2 to 1 yet, but that time is approaching. I think that some of it is lack of research that people do today, and especially the lack of engaging with other live, in-person humans to help them get setup so they don't fail in that first year. When I got in the hobby 20 years ago, everyone started with a used setup from someone, then it was upgrade to another used setup, and then MAYBE you splurged and bought that brand new tank with a fancy stand. Today, I think people just go out and buy a brand new 180 gallon setup for $6000, then throw another $5000 in equipment at it because 'the Internet says so'. It is way easier to be discouraged when that investment 'fails' vs a $1000 investment.

Also, I think aquarists today spend way too much time trying to be perfect rather than letting the hobby come to them, and when it doesn't work as they expected, they get upset. Things like chasing dKh or pH or Nitrate/Phospate ratios. Changing their lighting every week because that torch coral isn't growing like they expect it to. Changing water flow because the nem doesn't look like it did in the store's system when you bought it a week ago. I've gotten to the point now where I let the system settle in where it wants to be, and have found that the hobby is much less stressful.

 

[asifiqbal2]

You are not wrong at all, I agree with both your comments. There are lots of different perspectives. Covid definitely did a number on things but at the end of the day demand and supply forces will drive the pricing the market will bear.

Since I took a 7 year or so break I did see a fundamental shift in the hobby. It was less science and education… and more show and tell and collectoritus.

Maybe it’s the pricing, but once the hobby becomes a chore that people are no longer interested in they are out. It is a hobby after all.

I am seeing a shift in education again which should create a new breed of hobbyists… like anything else it does ebb and flow. I do agree we are in the downward trend right now.

 

[spsick]

You are totally right, but I think EVERY hobby has gotten this way now that investment groups figured out more avenues to enrich themselves.

Things have become more tech-obsessed and NEW SHINY TOYS but there still are many hobbyists focused on what’s WITHIN the tank not what toys they can show off.

I’ll admit, I own 4 MP40s. They are damn expensive, but they do what I need having a braced acrylic tank so I can still easily clean pumps. Sure, technically you’re supporting an American business which is great but they’re owned by an investment group that I’m quite certain could care less.

The big killer for me is the OBSCENE price of this fancy rimless tank setups from all the big brands. This has probably brought in a lot of different kind of hobbyists now that can just buy there way into reefing, where you used to HAVE to build it.

 

[spsick]

Great points @zoolan70 !

 

[MistakesWereMade]

The MP60 is a huge powerhead. It says it "fits" a 120-1000 gallon tank. I have a 200-gallon 6-foot tank. That feels pretty overkill for a 6-foot tank. Would it work? Sure, but I prefer my MP40s and still have them dialed back. I would have gone with the MP10s but those do not support my glass thickness. If I could pick up a used MP60 for a great deal I would, if I had a need for it.

The Red Sea ReefControl.... They sell tanks and have been reinventing their product line for years. This is the first I have seen it, but it is obvious they are trying to compete with Apex system. They have come out with the reefmat, return pumps and ATOs fairly recently so honestly this is a nice step for them. They are one innovation away from going to a subscription-based model! I have a few Red Sea products. I love the Reefmat. I won't be surprised to see them come out with a water testing version very soon that is similar to the trident. Some of their products have serious issues with their connectivity and need to step into the world of 5ghz wifi channels. There are perks to having everything available in one app. If everything they offered worked harmoniously in the way it should, it would be a great product line.

Both of these products are going to appeal to specific hobbyists. A person could put together most of their system using cheaper products. Wifi controlled outlets have been around for years that you could use for remote on/off or timer functions. Even building something with a raspberry pi or arduino would be cheaper, you just need to have the willingness to invest the time to learn how to do it.

I bought most of my equipment new and have a serious investment into what my tanks have become. I will be the first to admit that I was trying to do what the internet told me was correct (thanks forum family!) and have been hoping for the best. I still have a lot to learn, and it is part of the hobby. The most important lesson I have learned is Patience is key. I think the reason why you are noticing the experienced people leaving is they are generally more vocal on here. I enjoy coming on here and asking local reefers how to manage problems or suggestions or certain topics. I could just type things into google or find an R2R forum with similar information. I feel your input is more detailed and there are quite a few of you that would be willing to help if I asked. Even if that meant driving across the cities. Overall, the engagement of the forums has been down since when I started. I am sure there are plenty of people who check in here and just don't post anything. Maybe they just don't have anything to add or are just here to learn. But I have noticed that if anyone asks for help or is looking for feedback, you can almost always rely on someone to chime in and either ask for more details or give advice.

 

[spsick]

Great point as well, it is a monster for someone that typically has a monster tank budget. If you’re building out an 8 foot tank I don’t think $900 sounds as big.

 

[bigmax]

Good points all!

Other random thoughts below,....

I'm sure I have spent $80K plus over the years (today’s dollars maybe $120K). As said by all of you: no real hobby is cheap, but if I had put those dollars into vintage guitars, I'd be rich.

A person with no experience and five posts total on R2R asked the forum which EcoTech MP to buy. I'm sure he's read they are a good product; which they are, but based on his posts it's apparent he knows very little about the hobby and is going all in regardless. I'm willing to bet he'll dump a ton of money and be out of the hobby within two years.

My background is engineering. Assuming all of EcoTech's tooling is paid off and their R&D on that product is relatively stagnant, their cost to manufacture an MP60 would be in the $60–80 range. That's to actually make the piece, not to cover their overhead, etc. The market is limited; I couldn't even guess what their revenues are. They may need to charge $900 to keep the business viable (and what is sold by BRS brings in the full $900).

spsick… as you mentioned, tanks, or the Red Sea complete system as an example; used would be twenty cents on the dollar, and that would be a premium. Some premium gear will hold value better, but unless you find the right person at the right time, expect a standard depreciation schedule: 50% less the first year (warranty gone) and 10% off for each additional year of use. Not a bad thing, just my experience and expectations.


Maybe it's just due to the China tariffs and general inflation, but all gear has increased 25–30% over the last two years, which is what astounded me in the first place.

 

[ichthyogeek]

First off, my apologies for the rant; I couldn’t help myself. I originally posted this on R2R a few minutes ago, but figured I’d get some local perspectives too. Fire away… I can take the flames.

I’ve been in this hobby for about 45 years, and for fun I even worked one day a week at a fish store in Minneapolis. I fully understand why livestock prices have gone up over the years. But just for reference: I once bought a Clarion and a Black-Banded Angelfish for under $60 each. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $206 today. Availability and other factors play a role, but that’s not the point; the point is that back then an average hobbyist could afford to enjoy the hobby.


What got me going today was seeing a couple of Ecotech MP60s for sale on TCMAS. Nothing wrong with the asking price, but the seller referenced BRS as $900 each for new ones. Nine hundred dollars for a powerhead! At some point we have to ask ourselves what’s happening. I honestly think some of this crosses into addiction territory: the spending, the chasing of the latest gadget, the “new shiny toy” syndrome. Unless someone is truly flush with cash, it’s impossible to justify.


Another example: the new Red Sea ReefControl power unit. Red Sea makes great products, but this is clearly aimed at people who want premium gear for its own sake. I’m running a Kasa power strip that monitors power, offers scheduling, has a solid app, and probably covers 80–90% of the same functionality; for $34 compared to $359. That’s a huge difference for what most hobbyists actually need.


Maybe it’s just me, but from casual observation I’m seeing more “I’m shutting down and selling everything” posts than true newcomers joining in. Are we losing two long-time hobbyists for every new hobbyist we gain? I’m 70 and getting crotchety, so maybe I just don’t get it anymore, but it sure feels like the hobby is pricing out the people who built it.

I've been in the hobby for 20+ at this point in time. I definitely remember the times of cheap fish. Or rather, cheap to current me. They were certainly pricey when I was a kid!

I think that the average hobbyist can still somewhat afford the hobby though. It all depends on how patient they are and what they're willing to put up with/get. Like, could I do a beautiful 10 gallon tank with GSP, mushrooms, and a few cheaper stony corals? Yes. It would require a bit of saving and time, but it's not overly expensive retail wise if you know what to get and where.

I think the anger here is more about how there are so many "luxury" brands that have dominated the market. And when you're starting out, all you're exposed to is luxury brands: everybody has them so you have to get them too, because you don't know what you need to buy. LFSs also need to make money, so they're incentivized to get you to buy items with higher profit margins. And, I'll be honest, 10-15 years ago, the hobby was significantly more DIY: I distinctly remember having to figure out PVC in order to make my own overflow, mineralizing my own soil (for freshwater), and other shenanigans. More labor on my end, but also much cheaper than buying a pre-fab unit.

It's like if you grew up eating stuff from whole foods. Of course the food is expensive nowadays and only getting more expensive! But what we as consumers should be wanting, is more down-to-earth private-label brands like Jebao. A similar item, but with a different price tag.

 

[spsick]

Oh yeah anyone buying a $5000 Red Sea or whatever box is def gonna give lucky to get 1/5 of that back.

 

[MistakesWereMade]

down-to-earth private-label brands like Jebao. A similar item, but with a different price tag.

I feel way different about this brand than most. I totally understand the statement here but it sure feels like they just copied other people's products and sell for way cheaper. As a consumer, it sounds great. I even have one of their return pumps running right now. I sort of hate to support that kind business model though. But in all honesty, I have heard mostly good things about their products.

A lot of the cost when it comes to big brands is market name and advertising. There are some names you can certainly pick out and say you would never buy anything but X because they have a history of quality or customer service.

Red Sea tanks is one of those that really caters to the new hobbyist. I am sure most people here know about the crap job they did with their older tanks and people still hate on them for it. They advertise a lot and their warranty for the first year is great.... but after that, have fun.

As far as a return on investment for any/all of the equipment, I would think making back 10-30% would be reasonable. Any more than that you need to part out and sell things individually. Takes time and effort and you may end up being stuck with some things.

 

[Crum]

The hobby is shifting towards nano tanks. It's becoming significantly easier, more accessible, and more affordable. You can do a 'high tech' fully stocked nano reef for under $1000. Sure it's a lot more than a betta fish tank but you still get that reefing experience.

I wish there was more that I as an lfs owner could do about the prices. Unfortunately it just keeps getting worse for us too. I lower my margins to keep people happy, spend hours a week searching for the best deals on livestock...
And then UPS goes and raises their shipping rates another 30%

A lot of people claimed that the tariffs also caused a price increase but from my perspective it really didn't change much. Most of the big equipment brands are made in the US and the tax on imported livestock is negligible compared to shipping, which is untaxed.

All those super expensive brands and corals with fancy names are just hype. Like rolex or Gucci bags lol

 

[asifiqbal2]

It is a self fulfilling prophecy. At the end of the day all these companies are businesses. There are only two ways to make money to exist. You can make your money on volume or margin. The lower margin volume market has been saturated by copycats flooding the market so there is no room for different tiers to exist because they cannot compete. Hence the only segment that exists locally manufactured is the premium market.

 

[asifiqbal2]

Darn, I hope I didn’t kill the thread with the gloom

 

[MistakesWereMade]

I lower my margins to keep people happy, spend hours a week searching for the best deals on livestock...

And this is much appreciated by us. It is the furthest store from me. The selection, pricing and overall quality of your livestock is worth my drive. Your online availability is often accurate but I still call beforehand. I do not think I have been told something isn't there anymore when showing its available.

It does feel nice supporting local businesses but it is hard to do if they are way more expensive.

 

[Jjdurrant]

wait... the wife can't see this thread right?

Me at LFS