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Grigor's ATS Version 2 (1 Viewer)

Yes. Right now they are staggered by 2 days, but I want to get them to 5. I cleaned one after 8 days and let the other go to 10 days. If I do 8 days again and 10 days, then they will be staggered by 4 days...etc.

Agree on the added costs and work, I'm getting burned out and I'm not keeping up nearly as well as you. Tank is fine, just a touch of red slime, but no other nuisance algae but my nutrient levels aren't where I want them and I can't get them to move definitively in the right direction (hard to tell on the test).
 
David Grigor said:
Update: Sunday maintenance consisted of 40g water change, clean glass, siphon substrate, completely drain clean the frag/sump tank.

Cyano is really taking over the frag/sump. Only a very little in the show tank towards the end of the week on the substrate just before weekly maintenance. Otherwise, show tank looks fine, no hair algae of anykind. Corals seem fine.

This weeks levels, phosphates continue to rise. .153ppm ( Highest it has ever been since testing ). Nitrates continue to read somewhere around .2-.5ppm with the Salifert kit.

Screen: Looks terrible. Slime only. I can tell the harvest would be less than normal. I have decided to let it go for 10days and see what it looks like.
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I really think you would be ahead if you gave skimming at least a small consideration. It does not have to be a huge skimmer sized for your system. Just a little extra hand in removing waste before it breaks down. If you're having Cyno you have nutrients to spare for the skimmer.
 
Had I not had great success with Version 1, I might believe skimmer supplment would be the answer. Skimmer would be adding more equipment back to the system, the very thing I'm trying to streamline. Yes the way it is now short term it would probably would be of benefit. Long term I know ATS will work with my system just got figure out the right combo. Right now my best guess is the LEDs just aren't up to the match without lots more trial and error. Perhaps someone else will figure out the right formula to get LEDs to work and might come back to it. Lord knows I'll have a good head start on the parts needed.
 
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David Grigor said:
Had I not had great success with Version 1, I might believe skimmer supplment would be the answer. Skimmer would be adding more equipment back to the system, the very thing I'm trying to streamline. Yes the way it is now short term it would probably would be of benefit. Long term I know ATS will work with my system just got figure out the right combo. Right now my best guess is the LEDs just aren't up to the match without lots more trial and error. Perhaps someone else will figure out the right formula to get LEDs to work and might come back to it. Lord knows I'll have a good head start on the parts needed.
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What else do you need to experiment with? I can lend you drivers dimmable or not.. I have some CW/RB brand new that I havent yet used....Only condition is you make it work so I can replicate the same Hurray on my ATS :biggrin:

for now I still have the skimmer in service and needless to say it has done a good job or restoring the tank to a level of presentability to my better half's eyes lol... Since the last ahrvest was good and if it keeps that momentum .. hoping it will soon get to the point where the nutrient levels are down to a level where the ATS can go on autopilot I will attempt a second time to take the skimmer offline.

As a last ditch effort I'm toying with the idea of doing a hybrid lighting... LED + T5... this is from thinking that the difference between T5 and LED is that the T5 may have a quicker start off the block after a cleaning so it will provide the punch to kickstart and the LEDs take over from there. dont have a ballast to drive one/two 24" T5's.. maybe the Icecap 430 will work for now...
 
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Frist 10 day harvest. Experiencing the same as James did. 1 side harvest at 10 days was about the same as both sides at 7 days.

Algae Harvest ( 1 side only @ 10 days ) = 1.25 cups. Will do side 2 after 5 more days to get to a 10 day staggered rotation.

Nitrate slightly up, approx. .1ppm up from .2-.5ppm.
Phosphate continues to rise .221ppm up from .153ppm

No real signs of algae issues in the show tank, just a little bit of cyano still in the frag/sump and only on some frag plugs that had it prior to last weeks cleaning.

This weeks tweak: Increasing back to 18 hours but this time with the light diffuser on. Also, thinking ATS just can't handle the amount of food I'm doing so backing off from the 4-5 times a day down to 2-3 times a day and less per feeding. So instead of the approx 20cube per day feeding going to go down to around 12 cubes per day and see if can at least keep the numbers from climbing. Fish will still have plenty of food, I was feeding more than really necessary thinking I had to keep the ATS going. Still way more food than was ever possible with traditional skimmer setup.
 
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Ok, David. My chaeto is shrinking, but my nutrients (per the tests) are about the same. I still have some red slime. Thoughts? Wondering if the chaeto is dying and releasing nutrients as it does and keeping the level of nutrients static?

I removed the chaeto and put it in the sump of my 40b. I am getting a 2nd nano glo led fuge light at the swap, that should keep that stuff thriving.

I harvested one side of the screen today, after 9 days. The other side has 3 more days to go to get to 10 days and I don't know if it is going to get to where today's side got to or not. The single side I harvested today at 9 days had about as much on it as I was getting from two sides after 8 days....so I don't know if this one side at a time is the secret or if things are just taking off after the increase of light intensity to 400 MA's on the drivers.

I have a biopellet reactor and biopellets in hand but I have a week long trip planned in about 2 months and I want to wait until I get back from that before I put it online. I don't want to be gone and have that thing flip the switch and start working and have a bacteria bloom or who knows what else while I'm gone. I want to be there for it. Of course, if the scrubber takes off...it may just go into storage for another day.

Here is the side I cleaned today.
Image11112012141405.jpg
 
Your right , 8 tangs. Had an ich outbreak on the Regal Tang, pretty sure it took the clowns out they were by far the smallest fish. I was out of town that week so wasn't around to verify.


Well, I tried to go 15 days on Side 2 but the stench was just too great the whole basement smelled like the ATS when you walk down the steps. Only got to day 12 before having to clean it.

Harvest Side 2 was only 2/3 of a cup. So net result wasn't very good.
Phosphates continued to climb even with slowing down on feeding.

Seems to be very little green and mostly all slime. Just smelling the water at the surface of the show tank had the same smell as the ATS.
LPS were all angry. Had to go an additional 40g water to my normal 40g so 80g total this week. ( I'm going broke with salt costs ). Also had to run carbon and will likely need to continue until improvements. I don't have long term plans of running carbon as I want to eliminate everything with recurring costs ( except salt ) as possible. Worst case, long term I would run here and there as needed for clarity.

I'm pretty sure, this was the same reason LPS didn't look happy the last time. Slime must be producing some toxins/chemicals that causes them to close up.

Anyways, I'm getting very close to the end of my rope. Been shopping for T5 supplies to convert it back. Thanksgiving weekend will be the cutover it no major improvements between now and then. With Christmas Holiday/Vacation plans coming up I need to get this going and quit messing around. Bummer I had given away the T5 stuff a few months back and will need to repurchase reflectors and endcaps.
 
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David, do you think that it is the LED lights that are causing the problem or just the wrong kind of algae grew on the screen this time? Or is it that the ATS concept doesn't work reliably? I was planning on building a home-made version with parts I found, so just wondering. I enjoyed the info on that site you linked to on ATS system specs, etc.
 
Pretty sure it's the LEDs. There are so many possible combinations though I don't really know what is lacking. I couldn't go 18 hours becuase of burning so that would kind of lead me down the path that intensity isn't the problem. Spectrum, wrong mix of leds, LEDS not spread out enough, Need more LED less hour or turned down from full intensity, are all possible issues. Who knows really as it would take even more time and $ to try all the possible combinations.

The LEDs has produced some green and thought it was going to take off then the next week back to almost all red slime, then now some stringy stuff. The one example picture that I posted happens to have been the best ever. Never duplicated that amount of green and yet still just a fraction of what Version 1 produced.

The T5s on the other hand, I'm quite positive will work ( as I've alter been there done that ). Thinking now ready to cut my losses. Version 1 has already sold me on ATS can and will work reliably. That's never been in question for me with Version 2.


For others that are thinking of starting this journey, I would probably not recommend LEDs for larger ATS that are going to be 24" minimum. For smaller than 24", it still consider LEDs becuase the T5 options aren't available. I'm not a fan of the spiral because of size and reflector choices so linear T5s is all I'd personally do.
 
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I gave up. Ordered a case of 3000k T5 HO bulbs. Same brand and K bulbs I used before only 24" instead of the 48". Case of 50 avereges out to $2.65 each after factoring shipping costs.

Hopefully the bulbs will be here in time for Thanksgiving Holiday so I can work on version 2.5. Hoping I can just retro what I have by ripping out acrylic strips that were used to mount the LED.

I couldn't make it to 10days had to stop at 8. Starts to smell again. Mostly slimey some 3D algae. 7 day output is just not good enough. That was 18 hours per day with the light diffuser on it. Harvest was less than 1 cup again. Phosphates continue to rise and can't keep compesating with water changes. I want to avoid GFO and the recurring costs associated if at all possible.

You can tell the area in front of the LEDs is not growing as well as the outer so I doubt adding more LEDS would work. Would have to increase the area which means another $70-100 in heatsinks and I'm just not going to invest more when I don't even know if it will work.

Got lots of parts to make some DIY LEDS if I ever start a smaller tank again. For now, I'm going to enjoy just maintaining 1 tank for a while. It's been close to 10 years since I've had only 1 tank going.
 
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Congrats, David, by the middle of December you should be back in business. That should be a huge load off.
 
Caleb has constructed

Caleb has built a ATS of sorts. I am wondering if you all think it will work. We will take video and bring a laptop to get your opinion at the swap.

Thanks

Dan
 
Last weekend did a 50% water change.

Cleaned 1 side after 7 days, still the typical just shy of 1 cup harvest.

Nitrates are clearly down. Between 0-.2 on Salifert. It is a very very faint pink less than the .2 color chart.

Phosphates aren't too bad: .085ppm

Tweaks: I have all the parts to go back to T5 except the bulbs. Get spoiled with most companies shipping same day but it took them several days to ship so not here in time. So conversion won't be until Tuesday. I have been working on some items though. Built a false bottom and roughed up the screen that will go on it.
 
so those readings are for LEDs... so they ARE working.. just different type algae maybe? I'm getting rdy to build V3 scrubber... building it for LEDs as I think there's still hope... but will size it to work with 24"T5's hopefully I wont have to go the T5 route
 
I failed to mention that I'm not feeding at full capacity once the phosphates began to rise. Also these readings are with 50% water changes for the most part. I just can't keep that up long term.

Nitrate though was clearly down. While it sometimes hard to read the color chart, this time was definately lighter pink to virtually clear. Definately lighter than the first pink on the color chart.

I also think that cleaning only 1 side at a time even at 7 day intervals each side does seem to help rebound quicker.
 
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Grigor ATS Version 2.5 is now online.

1 minor improvement, I did add a false bottom with roughed up screen on it. Hopefully that will help cutdown on having to clean the bottom of the ATS. I would scrape and suck the bottom out every 2 weeks with a shop vac. I went with fulham workhorse for the T5s. Since replace the bulbs every 3 months, it didn't matter about the instant start being a bit harder on the bulbs. Also the fulham workhorse does under drive the bulbs a little bit. Total wattage 4X24" T5 is 85 watts measured by my kill-a-watt meter. The LEDs ran 88 watts.

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Parting words for version 2.0 LEDs:

2.0 final version ended up being 42 LEDS ( 17 reds per side, 4 blues ), 88W total with light diffuser. 18 hours per day. Cleaned each side once per week but staggered ( Wed & Sundays ). Even though a little more work, I do like that method and plan to continue that schedule. Feeding was roughly half of the rated amount for screen size. Anything more both nitrates and phosphate levels would begin to rise. Tank maintenance also included 40g water changes, some weeks up to 80g.

The last 3 weeks the LED version ended up working pretty well. Tank itself looks spectacular. Not a stich of algae of anykind ( except some coralline algae but that too is dwindling ). The upper rocks with the highest light had some brown on them ( not hair ) and that is completely gone. Little bit of cyano that was in the sump is gone, the back glass needed to be scraped 2-3 times a week as it would be pretty dark. Now after a whole week it's just a light dusting. Sandbed by the end of the week would have a little brown dusting which is no longer there. Even more impressive to me, this is all with adding 2 more Radion LEDs so both the front and back glass as well as everything else is receiving more light than ever before and yet ATS was still able to overcome.

Last 2-3 weeks, coral wise every thing is doing great. I'm seeing good growth on pretty much everything even with the elevated ( .12ppm ) phosphate levels. Nitrates last test was no color ( not even a hint of pink ) at the low resolution which up until the last 2 weeks always had at least some pink tint ( .2 ppm ) at the low resolution on salifert. So the nitrate level non-detectable and ATS outcompeting anything that could grow in the show rather than phosphates. This leads me to believe that version 1 probably had elevated phosphate as well just never saw any evidence of it by looking at the tank. I didn't have the phosphate test at the time to know for sure.

Only downside to get to this point I did cut down on the feeding to roughly 50% of the rated for the size screen. Which I should add is still way more feeding than most traditional reef tanks could handle. My previous feeding with skimmer was only once every other day at best and just a fraction what I feed per day.

One other observation I thought was unusual. Despite the less feeding the amount of algae scraped/exported per week always stayed the same. No matter the feeding always stayed around 1.5 cups per week. Most was 3D algae with some slime. Slime never totally went away. I would have thought less feeding would impact amount.

So in the end, LEDs was working well. Had I not already purchased a case of T5 bulbs and the parts I probably would just leave as-is with the lower feeding level. The feeding was still plenty for my fish load so that wasn't a big deal.

Interesting to see what will happen next with the T5s, if any more improvements will happen, stay the same, or get worse. I do know based on my experiences that I really don't care about the phosphate levels. As long as I see good growth and no algae I'll just let it be. I will track though for a while longer just to note progress of version 2.5. Will likely sell it ( again for the second time ) once everything is pretty predictable with the ATS, likely Jan/Feb.
 
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David Grigor said:
Even more impressive to me, this is all with adding 2 more Radion LEDs so both the front and back glass as well as everything else is receiving more light than ever before and yet ATS was still able to overcome.
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Does that bring the total number of Radions up to 8?
 
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