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liquid phosphate removers (1 Viewer)

i Heard of the salifert one and you have to put it in like every couple days and its not that big of a bottle for how much it is, i would stick with the pads and bead type stuff...
 
the pads don't seem t remove crap. It seems like fairly potent stuff, even if it's in a small bottle. Anyone wih first hand expeience?
 
About 4 years ago I had good luck with this product.
Marc Weiss Phosphate+Silicate Magnet.

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Sounds to me like a lanthanum chloride solution.

LaCl3 added to water will combine with negatively charged ions to form an insoluble precipitate. The primary molecule that is bonded to the lanthanum ion is organic phosphate. Because carbonates are also a negatively charged ion, they will also bond to the lanthanum ion. Thus a product like this will decrease your alkalinity.

It is best to use one of these products diluted with pure RO or distilled water. 10-20-50 to 1. Then drip this solution into your tank.

I've had very good success drastically removing PO4 from my water...but a word of caution. Changing any water chemistry value (even a deleterious value) too quickly can have a negative impact on coral health.

In order to be most effective, you should employ some type of mechanical filtration ( a very fine micron cartridge works great) to remove the precipitate as it forms...otherwise you'll have some high-phosphate detritus that could potentially become a problem.

Lanthanum shouldn't cause any major problems for your corals, but you'll probably notice some polyp retraction when its being used. I've had no problems using it with sps, stoney, softies or leathers. Apparently its also employed at the Atlantis Aquarium in their very large ~20,000 gal coral exhibit.
 
yslexdia said:
Sounds to me like a lanthanum chloride solution.

LaCl3 added to water will combine with negatively charged ions to form an insoluble precipitate. The primary molecule that is bonded to the lanthanum ion is organic phosphate. Because carbonates are also a negatively charged ion, they will also bond to the lanthanum ion. Thus a product like this will decrease your alkalinity.

It is best to use one of these products diluted with pure RO or distilled water. 10-20-50 to 1. Then drip this solution into your tank.

I've had very good success drastically removing PO4 from my water...but a word of caution. Changing any water chemistry value (even a deleterious value) too quickly can have a negative impact on coral health.

In order to be most effective, you should employ some type of mechanical filtration ( a very fine micron cartridge works great) to remove the precipitate as it forms...otherwise you'll have some high-phosphate detritus that could potentially become a problem.

Lanthanum shouldn't cause any major problems for your corals, but you'll probably notice some polyp retraction when its being used. I've had no problems using it with sps, stoney, softies or leathers. Apparently its also employed at the Atlantis Aquarium in their very large ~20,000 gal coral exhibit.
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+1, I wouldn't use it. If you are having phosphate issues, GFO would be a better route to go. What skimmer are you using? Good ones do a good job of removing phosphates (some better than others). Otherwise drip kalk and that should help as well. Definitely not a miracle product, seems like there are a few of these products out now. I wouldn't use anything with Marc Weiss on it...
 
heh, I'm not talking about the weiss junk. he is snake oil king, huh?

I'm not having phosphate issues, I just have some of this stuff available and wanted to know more about it.

Right now I've got a turbo-flotor w/OR2500 tuned in just right(need a needle wheel air restrictor to get it perfect) on a 40br with about a 10g fuge of chaeto. I've got quite a few fish but the only algae issue I have is some small spots of GHA. Tank is only ~4 months old, so other than regular w/c and rinsing food and such I'm not treating it. It already appears to be on it's way out. Part of the succession, you know?


is the primary product then LaPO4? It seems like I remember LaPO4 from somewhere. Also, how quick is the reaction? Could one drip it into an overflow and have the precipitate caught in a filter sock?
 
The reaction is basically instant. So yes, I imagine that you could have it dripping into your overflow and caught by a sock.

I agree with MattB. I'd NEVER use anything with Marc Weiss on it...he's a snake oil salesman.

That being said, there are a lot of brands of lanthanum out there...most are marketed to the pool crowd. Kent, SeaChem, etc, etc, etc will all market their own varieties soon.
 
The reason we pulled these types of products from the shelf is not because they don't work, they potentially work too well. Low phosphates = slow enough growth of algae that your cleaners can deal with it. No phosphates = no life.

You can remove 100% of phosphates with these liquids.
 
Another problem is the intermittent change in PO4 levels. If you imagine your phosphates rising slowing over time as a graph with a slight upward slope. You add Lanthanum and the graph immediately goes down to zero...and immediately starts climbing again. You add lanthanum and it goes down to zero, and immediately starts climbing again...the graph will begin to look like an inverted staircase. This is the exact same effect as water changes will have on nitrate levels in most aquarims.

Basically if you want to remove phosphates you want to do so gradually, and you want to keep them low. Lanthanum will remove them, but only when you're adding the chemical...and you can't add it constantly.

I my opinion, there are better methods for exporting phosphates. On smaller systems I think GFO is the best option. In larger systems I think that the vodka method is probably your best bet. But if you've got a large system with problematic levels of phosphates, then lanthanum is the way to go...it will bring it back to managable levels within 24 hours.

I would not recommend it as part of your normal maintenance regimen.
 
Some zoos have reported issues with their tangs after dosing LaCl3. Also, I believe that this only deals with inorganic phoshates, not organic phosphates. (Unlike the N cycle, organic P <=> inorganic P). They were able to lower phosphates in fish only displays from 6ppm to less than .5ml overnight. Imagine what that would do to your corals?!?

Most people that use do drip it into the system and do not do bulk "dump" of the chemical into the system. They were also testing for residiual Lanthanum, which they didn't find any.

IMHO, the best way for phosphate removal? Good skimming. Vodka is good as is kalk (which stays in the system, which I don't like). A good skimmer will go along way. Most of these tanks that these zoos are using on, do not have skimmers :).
 
matt, you don't like kalk? In my experience, kalk has been somewhat of a wonder-additive.

Does GFO not remove 100% of phosphate? I've never had to resort to using it (always relied on skimming, water changes and overall "good" husbandry). It seems like GFO could strip phosphate pretty aggressively as well, but do so for an extended period.
 
I do think Kalk is a good supplement. While the calcium phosphate is insoluble at our pH, it may be still available to bacteria and hence the system. Given that I've been using vodka or zeovit for 3 years, I don't need that benefit of kalk. My po4 is extremely low.

I don't know about GFO and organic phosphates..... My guess is no, it's only po4.
 
mattb said:
Some zoos have reported issues with their tangs after dosing LaCl3. Also, I believe that this only deals with inorganic phoshates, not organic phosphates. (Unlike the N cycle, organic P <=> inorganic P). They were able to lower phosphates in fish only displays from 6ppm to less than .5ml overnight. Imagine what that would do to your corals?!?
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There's been some discussion about exactly what is happening with the fish during lanthanum treatments. Speculation is centered around systems with excessive PO4 and lanthanum treatments that are equally excessive. Whereas a slow drip method with a moderate amount of LaCl3 has not produced similar problems.

In other words if your PO4 is very high, it pays to be patient and pragmatic...and lower it gradually over period of time, rather than letting it drop so dramatically.

Also, I've read that lanthanum has a toxicity approximately equal to that of sodium. I've observed no negative impacts using it with herps including turtles and amphibians...and I'll bet that amphibians are more sensative to it than virtually any fish would be. I'd also say that most of the zoos employing La are doing so on fish only systems.

That being said, I think there's a time and a place for everything. If you are dealing with systems on the order of several thousand gallons (w/o skimmer) or a system with drastically high PO4...then LaCl3 is probably your best bet. While I've never employed the vodka method (yet) I'd agree that it would probably be the best method available for most moderate/small systems...and on small systems GFO seems to be a very good option.

I've also heard of iron chloride additions that have a similar impact as LaCl3 additions, using the same chemical properties as GFO.
 
mattb said:
I do think Kalk is a good supplement. While the calcium phosphate is insoluble at our pH, it may be still available to bacteria and hence the system. Given that I've been using vodka or zeovit for 3 years, I don't need that benefit of kalk. My po4 is extremely low.

I don't know about GFO and organic phosphates..... My guess is no, it's only po4.
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I'm pretty sure that GFO is only going to remove inorganic (ortho) phosphate.

The vodka method is the only one I can think of that could potentially remove both.
 
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