News from your BOD (1 Viewer)

[David Grigor]

For me, It's a very lame reason to say shutting down the classified goes against the mission statement. There still is an Equipment section, So if your wanting to buy something you can easily get the information you want ( without the classifieds ) by simply opening a thread and saying, I'm thinking about X skimmer, here is my tank specs. Tell me the pros/cons and help me make a decision.

That will still educate just the same as probably even better.


For myself, I don't post items in the open for sale section. Without or without this decision, my philosophy is I want to give a good deal to those who participate so I only put them in the members section. I usually have no trouble selling my items in the members only and go in a matter of minutes. Ulitimately, I'm fine with how things were and the changes becuase that's what I do anyways so I have no real position on the classifieds itself. My only beef is those who really think they can't participate and come up with excuses. I truly believe when there is a will there is a way. Those are just not willing and would rather come up with excuses. Excuses never accomplish anything.

 

[KJoFan]

Speaking as one of those that resides quite a fair distance from the Twin Cities I can see the advantage of having a paid option to become a member. I would venture to guess the majority of us outliers will likely pay up to gain or continue member status and access to the classifieds (because really, who are we kidding by saying the classifieds aren't a major part/aspect/perk of a community like this).

I haven't been to a meeting due to the same reasons (some say excuses) as many others have stated. It's difficult to find the time and gas money for many of us to make that commitment. Well, now this way we only have to commit one of those. Paying a membership fee saves the time it would take to fit in going to a meeting. When you consider the gas money and value of your time, $30/year or $50/2 years doesn't look so bad.

For the outliers who think the membership fee is steep, it would make sense to try to become more active on the forums if possible or make a workshop that would provide more education and knowledge than a regular meeting in order to get their money's worth. This was likely the thinking of the BOD, encourage people to step up and participate.

I myself may never make someone's meeting and can at the least appreciate the opportunity to become a member in another way. I get to choose my own level of participation within the club without being excluded from anything.

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[David Grigor]

Isn't it ironic though when someone will say I live too far away to attend but have no problem coming to the cities to pick up a classfied item ( not pointing out KJO, just going with that same thought ). Of the classified threads I see there are a fair amount that won't ship becuase of odd size. I know when I sell I don't want to be bothered with shipping an item and clearly state so in my posts. Yes, it does come down to not being worth it to you rather than you can't. I'm totally fine with that just don't want to hear it as an excuse.

I don't really buy the other main excuse that I have to work. With enough advanced notice, you can choose to use vacation time or request time off. Again, it's just a choice that you are making not too and I'm fine with that. Just don't use it as an excuse to say I can't. I know I have taken vacation days to prepare for a meeting at my house or to drive to a meeting so I personally don't buy that as an excuse rather it's simply a choice you make.

 

[KJoFan]

Isn't it ironic though when someone will say I live too far away to attend but have no problem coming to the cities to pick up a classfied item ( not pointing out KJO, just going with that same thought ). Of the classified threads I see there are a fair amount that won't ship becuase of odd size. I know when I sell I don't want to be bothered with shipping an item and clearly state so in my posts.

I don't disagree David. And while you weren't pointing me out, I will tell you how I do it. I try to arrange as many deals as I can in one trip. If I'm selling, I sell what I can and make arrangements with those people. If I'm only buying I do the same. If I'm doing both..well you see how it goes. In addition to that, I plan to do other things while I'm up there as well. Other shopping, etc. I don't make one trip for one thing. It's 2.5 hours to the south suburbs for me. That would be ridiculous.

I can set one time with people to do my dealings and be on my way. And even that will take me 8+ hours with drive time. It doesn't work for me to spend 6 or more hours driving in a day to a meeting where I could only spend a short time before I need to be getting back home. (My dogs can only hold it for so long.)

That's just a bit of insight from someone that lives far away. Again, I'm not complaining in the least, I'm just sharing how it goes for me. I make my choices to get what I want or need and live with that. It's not always as clear cut as some think I guess.

What I do find absurd is the people who complain about a 30-40 minute drive from one suburb to another. If I lived up there and only had a 30-40 minute drive to any given event or classified item, I'd be thrilled!

 

[a1t2o]

I understood your point- please understand mine

ALL classifieds will be limited to members/sponsors

This change is going into place as it is - exactly how MAXreefer outlined it in the OP

NOTHING will be changed what so ever without a member vote at the next business meeting

I don't think that any changes will be made with this thread, I'm just trying to brainstorm the possibilities of what could be done at the next meeting or maybe before then if it is a small enough change. I hope you don't think that I am argueing against the changes that were made. My first posts when I found out about the change were out of shock which is why I apologized about having come off a little strongly. So please don't assume that I am trying to change things by myself, I'm just putting out new ideas to let others think for themselves.

 

[David Grigor]

Same could be true for meetings. Time it as such to make all your transactions at a meeting.

When I have 12+ $5 frags, it's not worth it to me to sell one at a time. I sell them all at the meeting and stipulate that in the thread. If you can't attend the meeting then don't put dibs ( of course there is always someone that thinks they are special ).

You would be surprise turn out for a $5 frag is well above 80%.

 

[thou]

Thought up a small solution, hear me out. What if you guys did a 30 day free trial membership with access to everything. And if the newbie sees all that tcmas has to offer then they will more likely to join. This will keep traffic coming, kinda like test driving a car before u buy. This won't relate to the ones already here but will affect future growth I think? I know people can change emails and reregister but I believe that can be minimized through your IT guys somehow.

Just another thought, so stop with the red rep thingys!

 

[hypertech]

What "IT" guys?

I think there is a wholesale misunderstanding about what keeps the lights on around here: it's participation and volunteers not classifieds.

 

[thou]

What "IT" guys?

I think there is a wholesale misunderstanding about what keeps the lights on around here: it's participation and volunteers not classifieds.

Either way its just an idea... Take it for what it's worth man. And I'm sure this site wasn't magically put together so I assumed there was some sort of computer/web guru that helped design, that's what I meant by IT guy.

 

[ironman]

A thread regarding the Business Meeting will be opened any time soon.
This will also include the upcoming elections and nominations for the following positions: President, Treasurer and one Director.

Will it include topics that are slated to be discussed? I would even argue that any issue people want to bring and vote on, if not done a week or more before the meeting, can be brought up and discussed, but should be voted on during the following meeting.

Sucks doesn't it? The speakers event is my baby and I am more sad to see it go than anyone - but I cannot justify spending half our yearly budget for one event a year that pulls in maybe 40 members - IF we are lucky.

Yes but those 40 members are getting a benefit, also, since we have people saying "well, you could have gone to the business meeting" despite the fact that not everybody has the means, or the time to do so, should be saying the same about the speaker events. By this logic, we should just stop having meetings since it sounds to me that only 40 or so people showed up to this last one, and that was a "huge" turnout. At any rate, could we possibly video tape the speakers and post the videos on youtube or somewhere like that? That could open up a host of copyright and legal issues, and brings to mind the question of who would do it, but it seems to me it would be something worth exploring.

The money will go towards funding the upcoming educational workshops (which will be beneficial and educational hands on experiences I think members will appreciate and attend), prizes and give aways - ALL things I am confident more members will want to participate in.

The workshops are a GREAT idea, the give aways and prizes, well, they come at too high of a cost for me to be for them, and as an infamous cheapskate, I like free stuff as much as the next guy.

We can revisit the speaker events at a future date if there is enough interest to support the expense of doing it.

Considering the events don't always carry a topic of interest to all club members, I don't think there will ever be "enough interest" In my mind, 40 members showing up justifies doing them, especially given the fact that our meetings generally have a lower turn out than that.

The cost outweighs the benefits for the club as a whole at this time.

I respectfully disagree

Can people please just let this go? This is a club for similar interests, not a swap n'shop. No one on either side is going to change their mind at this point.

This is not about buying or selling, while it's even a bad idea from that standpoint, this is more about the education of newbies, and the furthering of there well being in this hobby.

You are quite simply, plainly, and irretrievably wrong about this. If you disagree, feel free to sue us for violating our bylaws. I will defend the suit for free, you will lose, and you will finally learn how far off base you are.

No, I really am not, the classifieds ARE a source of education for newbies, If they go to buy a piece of equipment, or a new member of livestock for their tank, they often times do it because they are convinced it is the ok for their tank. Often, when they are convinced that the item they are pursuing is right for their tank, they won't post a thread asking the question, instead, they will go out and buy it and find out later, they got burned. With the classifieds, there is a built in firewall of members who genuinely care about the hobby and livestock more than making a quick buck, they are willing to say,"hey, this is going to reek havoc on your tank" or "This skimmer is too small for your tank." I think that is the part you don't understand about my point, that sort of thing simply does not happen via craigslist or Ebay. The classifieds are, in a sense the last defense against poor decisions that could end the hobby for many newbies.

The statements you bolded:


There is absolutely no legal principle that requires an organization to undertake each and every method of performing the goals in its bylaws that someone, somewhere, makes some remote argument would help meet that goal. Even if, every now and then, a classifieds sale does help exchange knowledge, it is hardly the only way. If you were correct, that simply because once upon a time, or even several times, knowledge was exchanged, and fellowship promoted, that would not require us to keep classifieds open to everyone. If that argument would be true, we would also be REQUIRED to write a few books, have a radio show, a podcast, meetings at bars to promote fellowship (and of course paid for by the club, as we can clearly see that spending $30 is too much for some), etc., etc., as those are all BETTER means of providing education or fellowship than the one you complain about.

This is hypocrisy at it's finest, plain and simple. Just because we are not writing books, does not mean we should be closing venues that DO help newbies further their knowledge base in this hobby. Doing so only weakens our position morally as a club.

Nor are we required to distribute said knowledge and fellowship to all comers. Were that true, we would not be allowed to limit access to any forums to members only, or even require that you sign up to view the website. We could not ban people, etc.

True, we are not required to do anything, but going against our mission statement only serves to weaken the club as a whole. At any rate, what is all this business about suing? Nobody even implicated that a lawsuit is in order here, it's a straw man argument that only serves to distract from the real issues here. Seriously, be better, you are a member of the BOD, you should hold yourself to higher standards.

For me, It's a very lame reason to say shutting down the classified goes against the mission statement. There still is an Equipment section, So if your wanting to buy something you can easily get the information you want ( without the classifieds ) by simply opening a thread and saying, I'm thinking about X skimmer, here is my tank specs. Tell me the pros/cons and help me make a decision.

Sadly, that is a Utopian stance, newbies often do not post threads asking about equipment they are convinced will work, and if they can't afford what they need, often times they will get something that seems similar, but doesn't work as well. The classifieds are yet another way we can help the newbies in this hobby.

That will still educate just the same as probably even better.

I agree, but the problem is, too often, the thread is never posted.

For myself, I don't post items in the open for sale section. Without or without this decision, my philosophy is I want to give a good deal to those who participate so I only put them in the members section. I usually have no trouble selling my items in the members only and go in a matter of minutes. Ulitimately, I'm fine with how things were and the changes becuase that's what I do anyways so I have no real position on the classifieds itself. My only beef is those who really think they can't participate and come up with excuses. I truly believe when there is a will there is a way. Those are just not willing and would rather come up with excuses. Excuses never accomplish anything.

Well, if you only want to sell to members, say so in your for sale thread, it's not rocket science, shutting down the option for other members to sell to non-members just because you don't like it, is an elitist attitude that does nobody any good and is, quite frankly, disgusting.

Since there is obviously confusion on my stance, let me again make it clear. I want to make a few points, then tie them together.

1. Our mission statement says we as a club want to "promotes fellowship and support among saltwater aquarists of all experience levels." and " Through the exchange of knowledge and experiences we help each other become better, more responsible and successful enthusiasts."

2. The open access classifieds often times do serve as a final defense against the making of poor livestock and equipment choices by those who are new (and even some more seasoned members) to our hobby. These are people who have already committed to making a purchase because they don't know any better. Because they think they are making the right decision, they won't post a thread to ask about it first. And if they do, they are often met with some genius saying "Use the search feature!"

3. The prizes and giveaways are great (who doesn't like free stuff! :rock, but the cost is high, we are eliminating speaker events, which are highly educational.

4. By closing down the open access classifieds, we only hurt ourselves because we drastically reduce the people who see what we are looking to buy, sell, and give away. it also reduces the contact time we have with other reefers both members and non members. It reduces the probability of newbies seeing established setups and learning from them. Yes, they can go to meetings and become members, but you are not required to have a tank in order to have a meeting. Also, newbies going to a person's house and seeing their setup may entice them to come to meetings, and also increases their exposure to our club, the people in it, and the amount of education they can get vs. just going to meetings.

Now, because point #2 is the elimination of what I would like to call the final line of defense for educating newbies, point #3 comes at the steep cost of eliminating a beneficial, and educational speaker events, and point #4 reduces the fellowship we have with other reefers because in order to buy sell or give away, you often must meet face to face, and you will often see setups of people who may never host a meeting, we are violating point #1 because we are moving away from promoting fellowship and education for saltwater aqauriusts.

That folks, is why I am against closing classifieds, and eliminating speaker events just so we can get free stuff.

 

[Matt D.]

ironman, your correlation between classifieds and new members is completely unfounded. Most forums have a minimum post count and/or a minimum membership length before being able to see the classifieds, but those forums are not lacking new members. I'm not talking aquarium related either, forums related to any number of different topics.

Regarding speaker events, have you ever been to them? Considering we have over 2000 users registered on the forum, and frag swap attendance is always rather exceptional, the number of people that attend speaker events is very dismal. The cost per attendee of a speaker event simply isn't worth it. It's no wonder the BOD and members at large would rather give back to the members who are active within the club versus provide things that are open to everyone regardless if they themselves provide value to TCMAS.

It's a cut and dry answer, but you, much like everyone else here that is throwing a fit over this, just simply do not like what you are being told.

 

[ironman]

ironman, your correlation between classifieds and new members is completely unfounded. Most forums have a minimum post count and/or a minimum membership length before being able to see the classifieds, but those forums are not lacking new members. I'm not talking aquarium related either, forums related to any number of different topics.

What are you talking about? I never once said the classifieds bringing in more people, I could care less if they did.

Regarding speaker events, have you ever been to them? Considering we have over 2000 users registered on the forum, and frag swap attendance is always rather exceptional, the number of people that attend speaker events is very dismal. The cost per attendee of a speaker event simply isn't worth it. It's no wonder the BOD and members at large would rather give back to the members who are active within the club versus provide things that are open to everyone regardless if they themselves provide value to TCMAS.

Yes, I went to the LED/breeding one, the turn out was actually pretty good, better than I expected. As long as we have the budget for these, it would be good idea to continue them. I'm fine with eliminating them, but not to fund "gimmes". You can give back to the club all you want, but prizes and give away only benefit one member, the one who gets the prize or give always. Things like the speaker event, workshops, and even meetings benefit a much larger group of memebers and as such is a much better use of funds.

It's a cut and dry answer, but you, much like everyone else here that is throwing a fit over this, just simply do not like what you are being told.

No, I don't like it because it's wrong, it goes against what the club stands for, it isn't good for the club or it's members. What I am being told is polar opposite of what the mission statement tells me. Like it or not, that is fact. The cut and dry truth is we are eliminating some good things, and for what? So members can feel safe in their little bubble? So they can get free stuff? Since when did we as a club become amused with shiny things instead of what really matters?

Matt, try reading the end of my last post again, it's quite clear you merely skimmed over it.

 

[Alunai]

I don't like the idea of being forced to pay a fee or drive to the cities in order to retain my same benefits. I live in st peter and the only meeting in my area that I know of in the entire two years I have been a part of this community will be taking place next month. My question is this, how is this fair? I would like to attend meetings but just cannot justify the cost to get to the north metro. Without the classifieds I think this forum will lose a lot of value. And this will soon become apparant in the site traffic after the change.

No one is forcing you to do anything. If you can't or won't attend meetings and don't want to pay the fee, which, let's be honest, is very reasonable, then that is your choice.

You don't have to justify the cost to get to the north metro, justify the cost to get to Medford and i will take you to the north metro. No cost to you, except having to listen to my excited pre-meeting babble.

And by the way, I drive to Shoreview and back every weekend. That is over an hour drive either way and it really isn't that expensive. Driving to Medford would be the same for you, and I would happily bring you to the cities or beyond.

And as for the young reefers, I would do the same. I would come to YOU and take you there and back, as long as it isn't majorly out of the way. I would chat with your parents until they feel comfortable with the situation. And considering I am a 22 year old woman that stands 5'2" tall and weighs no more than 110 pounds, you can't consider me much of a threat to anyone!

I have been a member since I was 18. I am a young, attractive woman in a hobby dominated by men. i have gone into many of the homes of male members, all by myself and have never had a single issue, nor have i ever even felt a hint of discomfort. If one of us is going to have issues, Simon, it would be me, and I never have.

By the way, if anyone ever did anything questionable to or around a young member, I am fairly certain that the entire rest of the club would be right behind you and would be on the arse of said person (especially Angie). This club is filled with good people that wouldn't let others get taken advantage of. This is a great club, with great people.


Edit: Oh! And I would like to mention to those that say they can't/won't attend meetings due to work and/or distance that I for one will be taking off work so that I can attend David Grigors meeting, which will be around an hours drive for me. I will be losing money from my paycheck and taking time from my rather busy schedule to go. I'm already broke, but I am still happily making a very small sacrifice to support the club and enjoy the company of other members. So please don't say that you can't. It's that you won't.

 

[Alunai]

In regards to the changes going against what the club stands for, I have three words for you. You are wrong.

Both Patent and Hypertech along with others have contributed to the actual content of that mission statement. You have not. They and they alone can tell you exactly what the thought process was that created that mission statement and, correct me if i am wrong, but both Patent and Hypertech have mentioned that classifieds were not a consideration in the making of said statement.

Perhaps you should be thankful that we even have classifieds in the first place. if you are so upset and against this, do something to change it instead of griping about it. That, obviously, is getting you nowhere.

 

[zocr-AZ]

I am a young, attractive woman in a hobby dominated by men.

Just had to quote this because I laughed. :gay2:

(Mrs. Zocr-AZ is sitting right next to me... so it's not creepy. )

 

[Alunai]

I want to take the time to thank the BOD for sticking to it's guns and following through with what the members have voted on. Also thank you for all the unpaid work that you put in. It is time out of your days that you volunteer for the sake of the club members, and it is stress on you that you willingly go through. Stress that can be caused by members who cause an uproar over business matters that they could have influenced but didn't. Know that what you do for the sake of the members does not go unseen or unappreciated, at least by most.

I also would like to thank moderators and long time members like LowersmyBP, Ray, Bill and David Grigor among others that contribute so much knowledge and wisdom and help to the club. This knowledge is the reason that I came to TCMAS, and it is the reason that I will stay.

So thanks.

 

[Alunai]

Just had to quote this because I laughed. :gay2:

(Mrs. Zocr-AZ is sitting right next to me... so it's not creepy. )

:rotflmao:

 

[Chad Vossen]

:deadhorse:

 

[David Grigor]

Well, if you only want to sell to members, say so in your for sale thread, it's not rocket science, shutting down the option for other members to sell to non-members just because you don't like it, is an elitist attitude that does nobody any good and is, quite frankly, disgusting.

I already said I have no position on classifieds being open or not becuase I only post sales in the members only. I'm a fine the way it was and also with the BOD decision. For me personally, nothing changed.

My whole beef is the excuses people give as to why they can't participate. Of all the years, there is only 1 ever that was truly valid. That was someone who was confined to the house longterm becuase of medical reasons. Everyone else, the reason why they don't is because it is there choice not too. Yes, for some it might be easier to attend than others but you could if you really wanted to.

$30 gives those who choose not to get a membership by participation another choice. If feel it's too much well that's fine. You know what your options are.

Classifieds as a way to educate, we will just have to call that a stalemate as I just don't see it. As much grief as classified has been over the years, I would have said years ago to get rid of all classifieds and the sump. Let's just talk about the hobby and nothing else. There are plenty of other avenues to sell stuff, you don't need TCMAS to do that.

 

[JHawk]

Thank you MODs and BODs for all you've done. I support your changes that were voted on. I will be moving out to Janesville, WI soon and still wish to remain attached to this wonderful club. I am thankful for the choice to become a sponsor as I dont know how many meetings I will be able to attend being so far away. Please let me know where I can send a check when the time comes.

Thanks again for all you do and the time you spend.