Im pretty sure you posted this thread immediately after I posted a thread about how to clean LR. This argument is ridiculous! There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Washing rock...? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Pomacanthus
- Start date
Im pretty sure you posted this thread immediately after I posted a thread about how to clean LR. This argument is ridiculous! There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Chem Guy
Senior Member
I agree with Reefstock. In this hobby you're far better off acquiring rock/sand from an established aquarium be that from a fellow hobbyist or local fish store. Yes, you can get "real live rock from the ocean" with 1 day shipping. But the truth is, you're also getting all the pests and problem species that are rampant in the ocean that we hobbyists can't deal with. A hobby aquarium cannot handle a true ocean habitat, so you don't want to import the entire biodiversity of the ocean.
Some examples are indeed hair algae and aiptasia. They can overcome an aquarium so quickly and easily that the only feasible way to remove them is to quarantine fish and coral and nuke the rock (acid or bleach, your preference. But I'm starting to understand that your intent was not a legitimate question but rather to start a flame war). Unless you're 100% sure that a piece of live rock has no algae or aiptasia spores on it (hint, it's impossible to know that 100%), you can convert it to dead rock by acid wash.
You seem to think you can handle a pure oceanic habitat in an aquarium. Pomacanthus, I'd like to see you literally harvest 100% of your aquarium from the ocean and keep it maintained with only natural products from the ocean.
The rest of us however, are happy to spend money on products or equipment which will actually benefit our aquariums, including acid washing live rock (one of the cheaper things we do).
Pray tell, how would you cure an aiptasia overgrowth in a 30, 70, and 120 gallon aquarium?
Some examples are indeed hair algae and aiptasia. They can overcome an aquarium so quickly and easily that the only feasible way to remove them is to quarantine fish and coral and nuke the rock (acid or bleach, your preference. But I'm starting to understand that your intent was not a legitimate question but rather to start a flame war). Unless you're 100% sure that a piece of live rock has no algae or aiptasia spores on it (hint, it's impossible to know that 100%), you can convert it to dead rock by acid wash.
You seem to think you can handle a pure oceanic habitat in an aquarium. Pomacanthus, I'd like to see you literally harvest 100% of your aquarium from the ocean and keep it maintained with only natural products from the ocean.
The rest of us however, are happy to spend money on products or equipment which will actually benefit our aquariums, including acid washing live rock (one of the cheaper things we do).
Pray tell, how would you cure an aiptasia overgrowth in a 30, 70, and 120 gallon aquarium?
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Pomacanthus
Senior Member
Of course it ridiculous - I guess I take offense to being called "a fool who barely understand things" I guess if you are a sponsor of this forum you are free from moderators....but alas Im just a fool who barely understands things. Maybe if i write that on the chalkboard a 1000 times Ill get it...
Chem Guy
Senior Member
If you read Reefstock's post again, you'll understand that he's actually mocking himself. He's saying that he's a fool who doesn't fully understand the biodiversity going on and is admitting that saying his 1 rock is 1000 times better than live rock is purely for dramatic effect. He was not attacking you in the least.
His comment about local live rock vs. shipped live rock is accurate. Local live rock will retain more life than a piece of rock shipped by boat in nothing but damp paper towel. Now if you have a different source of live rock, great. But most people rely on what collectors offer, which is dry shipping.
You seem to have some vendetta against acid washing. If someone wants to buy $500/lbs rock and acid wash it, why do you care? It's their rock, they can do whatever they wish with it.
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Pomacanthus
Senior Member
First of all you can buy live rock free from aptasia if you are willing to pay enough for it, from what Ive seen most hobbyists do not have a realistic budget for this. Good rock aptasia free runs over $10/LB wholesale.
Secondly problems such as aptasia can be controlled (if minimal) by use of natural preditors, and mechanical methods involving needles and such.
Hair algae is a challange but is easily controlled by 1) prolific coraline algae growth - hair algae can not grow on top of coraline 2) Natural methods Fisheri Angel, Kole Tangs, Rainfordi Gobies, Centropyge Argi, snails, small hermits, etc etc etc. Urchins spread coraline algae helping proliferation by pooping therefore spreading it around. If you have dry rock leaching PO4 24/7 with no denitrication capability good luck on the coraline algae growth.
I never intended to start a flame war, I was only suggesting what i consider a better method that I personally have had success with, I thought that is what this forum was intended for. If you guys want to bleach your rock go for it, but Im keeping the life in mine.
Secondly problems such as aptasia can be controlled (if minimal) by use of natural preditors, and mechanical methods involving needles and such.
Hair algae is a challange but is easily controlled by 1) prolific coraline algae growth - hair algae can not grow on top of coraline 2) Natural methods Fisheri Angel, Kole Tangs, Rainfordi Gobies, Centropyge Argi, snails, small hermits, etc etc etc. Urchins spread coraline algae helping proliferation by pooping therefore spreading it around. If you have dry rock leaching PO4 24/7 with no denitrication capability good luck on the coraline algae growth.
I never intended to start a flame war, I was only suggesting what i consider a better method that I personally have had success with, I thought that is what this forum was intended for. If you guys want to bleach your rock go for it, but Im keeping the life in mine.
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Pomacanthus
Senior Member
My vendetta as it were is against people taking living organisms out of the ocean and then purposely killing them with acid due to lack of knowledge/skill. I wonder how many corals have died due to incorrect treatments by hobbyists who read something in a post, take it as gospel, and "give it a whirl" before ever reading any credible literature? This gives the entire a bad name in my book - If the animal rights people ever got ahold of the posts about killing liverock by acid bleaching and started a petition who do you think Washington would side on? Bye Bye live rock forever.
Maybe you should call them and ask?
Sorry to be a smartass. I ended up selling the LR I was planning to acid bathe. I bought 70 pounds of BRS Eco Rocks which are mined and do not destroy reefs.
Chem Guy
Senior Member
My point is that few people have the means to do as you claim they should do. I have a 28 gallon aquarium. I cannot ethically house a tang or other such fish to eat algae. The number of snails/hermits needed to counter a full algae bloom in a 28 gallon tank is not practical. Buying rock coated in coraline is also not practical. I'm not familiar with urchins, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I assume they're also not suited for nano-aquariums.
My problem with you is that you're attributing acid washing with lack of knowledge/skill, as you just stated. Most people acid wash because they are knowledgeable enough to know that if they don't acid wash they'll experience a huge cyano/algae bloom that they may never recover from. My point is that acid washing is in fact a very skillful method of establishing a new aquarium.
If you want to bring the ethics of killing organisms harvested from the ocean into this, I caution you. You won't win. You won't win because if you're any sort of marine aquarium hobbyist you're unethical by definition. The simple act of taking organisms from their natural habitat is unethical in the purest form.
My problem with you is that you're attributing acid washing with lack of knowledge/skill, as you just stated. Most people acid wash because they are knowledgeable enough to know that if they don't acid wash they'll experience a huge cyano/algae bloom that they may never recover from. My point is that acid washing is in fact a very skillful method of establishing a new aquarium.
If you want to bring the ethics of killing organisms harvested from the ocean into this, I caution you. You won't win. You won't win because if you're any sort of marine aquarium hobbyist you're unethical by definition. The simple act of taking organisms from their natural habitat is unethical in the purest form.
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Pomacanthus
Senior Member
With all due respect Chem Guy how do you know this:
<His comment about local live rock vs. shipped live rock is accurate. Local live rock will retain more life than a piece of rock shipped by boat in nothing but damp paper towel>
Did you read it in a post? That made it so?
You guys kill me, you get one old timer in here (me) playing devils advocate, preaching the old school way and everybody gets all PO'd.
In my opinion if you have never tried natural rock methods you opinion is here say in the best case scenerio. Its really not that difficult, and IMO the benefits of bugs and good bacteria FAR outweigh the chance of getting maybe one mantis shrimp. Sheesh the Germans usually let the rock sit for 4-8 months to cultivate beneficial bugs and here you have guys who cant wait 2 weeks...If you cant wait 2 weeks how much you want to bet you overstock your tank and kill a bunch of stuff with a ginormous ammonia spike (mostly due to your DOA rock) albeit no beneficial bacteria present on bootup?
<His comment about local live rock vs. shipped live rock is accurate. Local live rock will retain more life than a piece of rock shipped by boat in nothing but damp paper towel>
Did you read it in a post? That made it so?
You guys kill me, you get one old timer in here (me) playing devils advocate, preaching the old school way and everybody gets all PO'd.
In my opinion if you have never tried natural rock methods you opinion is here say in the best case scenerio. Its really not that difficult, and IMO the benefits of bugs and good bacteria FAR outweigh the chance of getting maybe one mantis shrimp. Sheesh the Germans usually let the rock sit for 4-8 months to cultivate beneficial bugs and here you have guys who cant wait 2 weeks...If you cant wait 2 weeks how much you want to bet you overstock your tank and kill a bunch of stuff with a ginormous ammonia spike (mostly due to your DOA rock) albeit no beneficial bacteria present on bootup?
cubetankguy
its hip to be square
im not po'd im actually on ur side.... i dont understand bleaching live rock..... if organisms come in i dont want i deal with them.... but im not spending the ammount i did on the rock to kill it... if i wanted to start with dead rock id buy marco rock..
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Pomacanthus
Senior Member
Chem Guy-
I respectfully disagree <again>
Check on Centropyge Argi or Centropyge Fisheri (Hawaii) they are strict herbivores with a reputation for micro hair algae, your tank would easily accomodate one or the other. Snails are small I really dont understand your point - you say they are "not practical" when in fact they are? The angels i mentioned are are between 1" - 1.5" full grown and a Rainfordi Goby is a virtual lawnmower, stays small enough for your tank. You are kidding yourself if you think this cant be controlled naturally - granted it more laborious in the beginning, but infinately less in the long run, and unfortunetly it can not be accomplished in 2 weeks. Realistically it takes about a year to fully cycle/mature/stabilize.
Maybe you meant to say not affordable? instead of not practical ?
I respectfully disagree <again>
Check on Centropyge Argi or Centropyge Fisheri (Hawaii) they are strict herbivores with a reputation for micro hair algae, your tank would easily accomodate one or the other. Snails are small I really dont understand your point - you say they are "not practical" when in fact they are? The angels i mentioned are are between 1" - 1.5" full grown and a Rainfordi Goby is a virtual lawnmower, stays small enough for your tank. You are kidding yourself if you think this cant be controlled naturally - granted it more laborious in the beginning, but infinately less in the long run, and unfortunetly it can not be accomplished in 2 weeks. Realistically it takes about a year to fully cycle/mature/stabilize.
Maybe you meant to say not affordable? instead of not practical ?
Chem Guy
Senior Member
No, this is common sense. Let me explain:
Consider two sources of live rock. One is from the ocean. However it was taken from the ocean, put in a plastic box without water, and left dry for a period of hours to days.
The other is from an established hobby aquarium that has been stable for months. It contains the beneficial bacteria and organisms needed for a successful hobby aquarium. It contains no aquarium pests such as aiptasia and it does not go dry between the source and your personal aquarium.
Given the choice, I'd choose the sure fire bet from the local source. I don't want to deal with foreign pests if I don't have to.
In our defense, you did not play devil's advocate, you incited an attack on acid washing live rock. You don't realize that the majority of us don't have access to true natural rock. We live in Minnesota, we're as far from an ocean as physically possibly in the U.S. My bet is the Florida Reef Society doesn't have this argument. We cultivate the good bugs and pass them on. We kill the bad bugs because if we don't they spread very quickly.
Then you go on to insult some very experienced hobbyists of overstocking and ammonia spikes (which you should know is pretty much impossible in an aquarium more than a few months old.) You're only perpetrating your own ignorance of the hobby. Acid washing (The OP of this thread, remember?) is not meant to combat ammonia spikes or overstocking.
cubetankguy
its hip to be square
lemme go get my popcorn
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Chem Guy
Senior Member
Woah, I meant to edit but it added a post, I screwed up somehow, haha.
The Centropyge Argi was cited as aggressive and the Centropyge Fisheri was cited as 55 gallon minimum. As a general retort, if I don't want dwarf angels in my 28 gallon tank, am I SOL? What if I want a clownfish, a goby, and a sixline?
The Centropyge Argi was cited as aggressive and the Centropyge Fisheri was cited as 55 gallon minimum. As a general retort, if I don't want dwarf angels in my 28 gallon tank, am I SOL? What if I want a clownfish, a goby, and a sixline?
Chem Guy
Senior Member
lemme go get my popcorn
Haha, I'm fired up... I hate it when people say that someone else is wrong without considering other viewpoints.
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iv used "live rock" and acid bathed rock over the years and honestly the acid stuff will turn "live" soon enough. iv never had an issue with washed rock. i had a great thriving tank when i used that. lots of hair alge and even worse!!! that damnable feather caulupra! boy does that stuff suck!
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Pomacanthus
Senior Member
Too many people basing thier decisions on what they read in a newsgroup. First off all, its my impression that most of you who advocate acid washing rock have never tried natural rock, or curing natural rock because of fear from what you have read. If this is the case and have no experience curing rock, or using natural rock you really have no basis from slamming natural rock methods and you have never tried them. 2nd to chemguy you simply cant believe everything you read, the literature that says you need a 55 GL miinimum for fisheri or argi is BS. I have kept more than 25 of each species for several months in tanks smaller than 55 gallons, several were kept in invert holding cubes (maybe 20 gallons tops) for months with other species of small fish. The point is that you cant believe everything you read (including this post) unless you have tried it yourself and have experience - otherwise it just heresay in my book. I read one time that dragon wrasses were "reef safe" but that doesnt make it so...
cubetankguy
its hip to be square
while i do agree with both sides, imho it comes down to time and patience... its extreamly time consuming to rid your lr of the nasties that it can bring in... when i was setting up my larger tanks years ago it would litterally take me 6 months from the time i recieved it until i had removed all the nasty animals out.... i tore down aquascaping on numerious times to remove mantis shrimp, fuzzy crabs, rip of unwated broposis ect... it wasnt fun... i didnt enjoy doing it... but when i upgrade my current system to a much larger cube i will do it the exact same way... and battle the nasties because i feel it is the way to go to get what i want from my live rock.. is it the right way..... i dont know.... is it the wrong way... i dont know.... i do know that it is the way i prefer to do things and it is the only way i will do it...