An example of the potential benefits/importance of sharing what you have (1 Viewer)

[capman]

For quite a few years I have been a proponent of sharing coral frags without expecting anything in return (other than that the recipient will exhibit the same behavior toward others with his/her corals if/when they have the chance). I've gotten up on a soapbox about this multiple times on the various forums this club has had over the years. Sharing this way is not only a nice thing to do, but it is the responsible thing to do because it reduces the chances that the original collection from the wild will be a waste in the event that you have a disaster in your tank. And of course it is fun, because everyone ends up with much more interesting diverse tanks.

It can also be the selfish thing to do, since it makes it more likely that you might be able to get a frag of it back someday in the event that you have a disaster. I had an illustration of this today.

I gave Chad Vossen some clownfish eggs to try raising up today (a nice thing for him - they are really nice clowns - and potentially a really nice thing for me since I'd like some offspring from these fish and he seems to be having some success raising up clowns from eggs). So, Chad, in his typically nice manner, brought me a little something from his tanks to express his appreciation. It was a bright green flower anemone (actually, I'm not sure what these are called - bright green oral disk, smallish brown tentacles, max size of 2 or 3 inches diameter, divide and multiply readily).

Chad had gotten these from Stan.

And the funny thing is that if I'm recalling correctly, Stan got them from me some years ago (I think right around the time that Eric Borneman came and talked at Augsburg, if I recall correctly). And I in turn had gotten them from another club member who gave them to me for free.

In the intervening years I had had a number of serious problems with my tanks and had lost a bunch of really nice things, including these anemones. Oddly enough, I had been remembering recently how nice these anemones used to be, and I was sad that I had lost them (I lost them years ago now).

And now I have one back in my tanks in the lab!

Very cool.

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Note: I'm not saying that people should just expect free corals from strangers, but that people should volunteer this when they can...maybe not with all of their corals, and maybe not with folks who just seem to be taking advantage of things. If you have a particularly special coral it might make sense to restrict the sharing of that one to people who you really trust, though in truth, the more I like a coral the more I want to spread it around as insurance against total loss.

 

[Merkurfan]

Round and round they go, where they stop no one knows!

The beauty of FIF, it's been tampered with in the past, but when the rules are followed it always works out well.

 

[Chad Vossen]

Had no idea you knew about these anemones already, or even that they came from you originally. However I knew you'd really like one of these anyway.


ALSO, I heard that back in the day, club members would sometimes bring frags to meetings and offer them to the host. I'd love to see this come back in the club. If the host is not interested in the frag, they can pass it on to another member/new member.

 

[patent]

Do you have a pic? I think I got one of these recently, but its disappeared on me.

 

[Chad Vossen]

Do you have a pic? I think I got one of these recently, but its disappeared on me.

 

[patent]

Thanks Chad, mine was a little different, very similar size and general appearance but I think its tips were colored. It had a pinkish tip and a more greenish body, otherwise very similar.

 

[capman]

Round and round they go, where they stop no one knows!

The beauty of FIF, it's been tampered with in the past, but when the rules are followed it always works out well.

Actually, I have to say that the formalized FIF "rules" as they have developed in recent years sort of bother me. Yes, they make complete sense in that if you are given something (especially something nice that someone else paid a lot of money for) you should not be running off and selling it to make a profit from someone else's generosity (I have had this happen with fish I gave people in the past, back close to 20 years ago when I was a big angelfish breeder). And yes, it makes sense to keep track of these corals that have been obtained this way all the way down through multiple transfers so that the original purchaser is not getting taken advantage of by folks down the line.

But viewing the whole thing as a set of rules sort of misses the point, and sort of perpetuates the mindset (e.g. where non-FIF corals are involved) of "I'll give you this if and only if you give me that" (even though the "this" you have to give might be so abundant in your tank that you are going to have to start throwing out some of it to make room for your fish to swim!). Sharing freely when you can is so much more fun, and if you are not worrying all the time about "what's in it for me", you often end up getting much more in return than if you had worried a whole lot about getting paid a decent amount or getting a good trade for every last frag.

Yes, FIF, as it is currently called, makes perfect sense, and laying this out as a set of rules is probably necessary in a larger group where people don't necessarily know and trust each other the way they might in a smaller group (and where the potential for there being some who will abuse the generosity of others is greater). I guess what I am talking about really is a matter of mindset....FIF/trade/purchase policies for the sake of ensuring people don't get screwed vs. sharing for the joy of sharing.

In practice I guess it all amounts to the same thing (and it all comes down to people having common decency in their dealings with others), but I think how we think about things can really shape how we feel about the group and each other.

I think this transition in mindset (which has probably become necessary due to the size of the group, and due to the presence of some "cheaters" in the past) is part of what some of us "old-timers" in the club are missing/craving from the early days of the club when it was just a handful of folks who liked to share their obsession with their tanks.


______________________________________________________
And no, I don't begrudge people who want to get a bit of money for coral frags, or especially for larger corals that they have some time and effort invested in, or that they paid a lot of money for. And if you do enough of this sort of selling it might help offset the cost of running your tank (and in some cases maybe this help with the finances would make an otherwise unaffordable tank affordable). But I think there are often cases where the amount that you might get from charging rather than sharing freely is so very small in the big picture, and the benefits that come from a sharing mindset could be so much greater. As with all human endeavors though, idealism like this only works out well in practice if everyone shares the same philosophy (which, alas, is not always the case).

 

[capman]

These anemones can develop oral disks that are proportionally a good deal larger (relative to the tentacles) than the one in this photo, often with a sort of domed appearance. And when doing well they split readily and form nice colonies.

 

[capman]

Had no idea you knew about these anemones already, or even that they came from you originally. However I knew you'd really like one of these anyway.

Yes, this is what I find so cool about this.

ALSO, I heard that back in the day, club members would sometimes bring frags to meetings and offer them to the host. I'd love to see this come back in the club. If the host is not interested in the frag, they can pass it on to another member/new member.

It is so nice how you have brought things both times you came for eggs (a few frags last time, the anemone this time). I was not expecting anything other than some of the baby fish if you are successful with the eggs. The coral/anemone gifts are nice. In fact, one of the birdsnest corals you brought me before is going to be one of the stars of the General Bio lab tomorrow - it looks GREAT under a low power microscope and is almost as perfect as Pocillopora damicornis (which is THE perfect coral for lab demos - unfortunately I don't have anymore) for helping students to understand the anatomy and biology of stony corals.

When I look at all the things in our tanks, many of the nicest and most useful (for teaching) things in our tanks were gifts from club members originally (including nice corals, some of the fish, a nice big limpet, a nice cowrie, urchins, etc, etc....not to mention a wonderful sump built by David, etc, etc.). A LOT of students have benefited from this generosity, and the world has that many more people now who are a bit more enlightened about coral reefs and biology in general. Thanks.

 

[LowersMyBP]

Had no idea you knew about these anemones already, or even that they came from you originally. However I knew you'd really like one of these anyway.


ALSO, I heard that back in the day, club members would sometimes bring frags to meetings and offer them to the host. I'd love to see this come back in the club. If the host is not interested in the frag, they can pass it on to another member/new member.

Chad is the bomb, he brought me a beautiful mushroom for my meeting on sunday. I received a wonderful frag from Montiporalova as well. I was also offered things from mrbill and damseldebbie that ended up in the raffle. I was blown away by the generosity of many on sunday. (steve whited and myboysmommy as well)

 

[wkjames]

Actually, I have to say that the formalized FIF "rules" as they have developed in recent years sort of bother me. Yes, they make complete sense in that if you are given something (especially something nice that someone else paid a lot of money for) you should not be running off and selling it to make a profit from someone else's generosity (I have had this happen with fish I gave people in the past, back close to 20 years ago when I was a big angelfish breeder). And yes, it makes sense to keep track of these corals that have been obtained this way all the way down through multiple transfers so that the original purchaser is not getting taken advantage of by folks down the line.

But viewing the whole thing as a set of rules sort of misses the point, and sort of perpetuates the mindset (e.g. where non-FIF corals are involved) of "I'll give you this if and only if you give me that" (even though the "this" you have to give might be so abundant in your tank that you are going to have to start throwing out some of it to make room for your fish to swim!). Sharing freely when you can is so much more fun, and if you are not worrying all the time about "what's in it for me", you often end up getting much more in return than if you had worried a whole lot about getting paid a decent amount or getting a good trade for every last frag.

Yes, FIF, as it is currently called, makes perfect sense, and laying this out as a set of rules is probably necessary in a larger group where people don't necessarily know and trust each other the way they might in a smaller group (and where the potential for there being some who will abuse the generosity of others is greater). I guess what I am talking about really is a matter of mindset....FIF/trade/purchase policies for the sake of ensuring people don't get screwed vs. sharing for the joy of sharing.

In practice I guess it all amounts to the same thing (and it all comes down to people having common decency in their dealings with others), but I think how we think about things can really shape how we feel about the group and each other.

I think this transition in mindset (which has probably become necessary due to the size of the group, and due to the presence of some "cheaters" in the past) is part of what some of us "old-timers" in the club are missing/craving from the early days of the club when it was just a handful of folks who liked to share their obsession with their tanks.


______________________________________________________
And no, I don't begrudge people who want to get a bit of money for coral frags, or especially for larger corals that they have some time and effort invested in, or that they paid a lot of money for. And if you do enough of this sort of selling it might help offset the cost of running your tank (and in some cases maybe this help with the finances would make an otherwise unaffordable tank affordable). But I think there are often cases where the amount that you might get from charging rather than sharing freely is so very small in the big picture, and the benefits that come from a sharing mindset could be so much greater. As with all human endeavors though, idealism like this only works out well in practice if everyone shares the same philosophy (which, alas, is not always the case).

Regarding "rules", please see this excerpt from the forum rules and behavior guidelines posted as a sticky in the general reef discussion forum:

...The concept of Frag-it-forward (FIF), pay it forward, etc. is not a rule, but a RESPECTED custom within our club. If someone gives you something, it is customary for you to pass it on when you are done with it. If a living thing is given to you, (coral, fish, etc.) then spawn, coral frags, etc. from it in the future are expected to be given away as well. If you accept a free thing from a club member, this agreement is generally implied. Failing to comply is not a rule violation, but is considered to be in extremely poor taste, and will likely result in you never getting another such gift.

I copied this thread over to the FAQ area as an example of good practices in TCMAS. Thanks for posting this thread, I hope the meaning within it sinks in for everyone.

 

[mrbill]

Bill, Thats funny because the purple condy I offered to give you a while back came to me through Chad. Still have it if you want it. I could probably just give it back to Chad and he could get it to you.

 

[Havre]

Bill, I still have some of those zoas you gave me out of the tank at Augsburg.....about 10 years ago! At the time they were the hot ticket (green with orange centers) of course now everyone has them. But I still remember your generosity that day!

 

[capman]

We have so many things in our tanks that were gifts from people, but those zooanthids are something we actually bought (mailorder from Inland Aquatics) when our tanks were first getting going. I'm really happy that they have been spread to so many tanks. I really like those (and still have a small colony).

Incidentally, I gave away so much of that "pink" Xenia (which I always called Red Sea Xenia) in the past that I suspect much or maybe most of it in the area actually originated from my tanks. Interestingly, they started out as a cluster of about 4 or 5 little individual Xenia polyps on a rock of yellow polyps that I got inexpensively from Murray back when he had Cleveland Aquatics. (The so-called Xenia elongata I used to have so much of (which originated as a single polyp on a rock Shawn bought from Murray!) has been lost by me. I don't seem to hear much about this from folks anymore, so I don't know whether it is still in the area tanks.)

But alas, I also gave away literally dozens and dozens of frags of my favorite coral of all time - a super hot pink birdsnest that I originally got from Shawn ("clam man") around the time this club got started. A number of years later I had lost this coral myself due to some tank disasters and NO ONE seemed to have any of it! I suspect it might still be around, but none of the people I originally gave it to still had it (and now most are no longer in the club), and if others had it they did not know where it originally came from.

The Larry Jackson's purple tipped monster Acropora (another one that we had originally purchased) that I also gave away dozens of frags of is another one I have lost and lost track of. I don't know whether it still exists locally or not (though the tricolor Acropora is very similar).

 

[capman]

Regarding "rules", please see this excerpt from the forum rules and behavior guidelines posted as a sticky in the general reef discussion forum:

Yes, this is nicely stated in the forum rules and behavior guidelines.

 

[capman]

Bill, Thats funny because the purple condy I offered to give you a while back came to me through Chad. Still have it if you want it. I could probably just give it back to Chad and he could get it to you.

I've been debating whether I actually have room for this anemone (and I've been too busy to do anything about getting it from you). I think I would actually like this, and if I move one particular coral to a different tank to get it out of the way, I will have a nice place for the anemone (with a pair of ocellaris clowns that would probably accept it as an unorthodox host). It would be a great addition to the lab tanks.

I'm assuming (hoping) I'll be interacting with Chad some more regarding the clowns, so if he is OK with being a go-between this would be great.

 

[diermmen]

We have so many things in our tanks that were gifts from people, but those zooanthids are something we actually bought (mailorder from Inland Aquatics) when our tanks were first getting going. I'm really happy that they have been spread to so many tanks. I really like those (and still have a small colony).

Incidentally, I gave away so much of that "pink" Xenia (which I always called Red Sea Xenia) in the past that I suspect much or maybe most of it in the area actually originated from my tanks. Interestingly, they started out as a cluster of about 4 or 5 little individual Xenia polyps on a rock of yellow polyps that I got inexpensively from Murray back when he had Cleveland Aquatics. (The so-called Xenia elongata I used to have so much of (which originated as a single polyp on a rock Shawn bought from Murray!) has been lost by me. I don't seem to hear much about this from folks anymore, so I don't know whether it is still in the area tanks.)

But alas, I also gave away literally dozens and dozens of frags of my favorite coral of all time - a super hot pink birdsnest that I originally got from Shawn ("clam man") around the time this club got started. A number of years later I had lost this coral myself due to some tank disasters and NO ONE seemed to have any of it! I suspect it might still be around, but none of the people I originally gave it to still had it (and now most are no longer in the club), and if others had it they did not know where it originally came from.

The Larry Jackson's purple tipped monster Acropora (another one that we had originally purchased) that I also gave away dozens of frags of is another one I have lost and lost track of. I don't know whether it still exists locally or not (though the tricolor Acropora is very similar).

I have a frag of the Larry Jackson's Purple Monster growing out that I bought a ways back from Boker. It still exists in the area! :beerchug:

 

[bkoppes]

We have so many things in our tanks that were gifts from people, but those zooanthids are something we actually bought (mailorder from Inland Aquatics) when our tanks were first getting going. I'm really happy that they have been spread to so many tanks. I really like those (and still have a small colony).

Incidentally, I gave away so much of that "pink" Xenia (which I always called Red Sea Xenia) in the past that I suspect much or maybe most of it in the area actually originated from my tanks. Interestingly, they started out as a cluster of about 4 or 5 little individual Xenia polyps on a rock of yellow polyps that I got inexpensively from Murray back when he had Cleveland Aquatics. (The so-called Xenia elongata I used to have so much of (which originated as a single polyp on a rock Shawn bought from Murray!) has been lost by me. I don't seem to hear much about this from folks anymore, so I don't know whether it is still in the area tanks.)

But alas, I also gave away literally dozens and dozens of frags of my favorite coral of all time - a super hot pink birdsnest that I originally got from Shawn ("clam man") around the time this club got started. A number of years later I had lost this coral myself due to some tank disasters and NO ONE seemed to have any of it! I suspect it might still be around, but none of the people I originally gave it to still had it (and now most are no longer in the club), and if others had it they did not know where it originally came from.

The Larry Jackson's purple tipped monster Acropora (another one that we had originally purchased) that I also gave away dozens of frags of is another one I have lost and lost track of. I don't know whether it still exists locally or not (though the tricolor Acropora is very similar).

I have a pink birdsnest I got from Zibba a few years back when he tore down his tank. It may be the same one you are talking about. It gets very pink in high light.

 

[capman]

diermmen and bkoppes,

If I get one of my systems back in shape for SPS corals, maybe I'll be contacting you guys!

That Acropora was my second SPS coral (also bought from Inland Aquatics something like 12 or 13 years ago) - I used to have a ton of it and even had a student use it in a research project (here are a bunch of cuttings from when that project was just getting started: http://www.augsburg.edu/ppages/~capman/aquariumphotos/researchcorals.html ).

That pink birdsnest had the most amazing color of any I have seen. I used to grow it in my relatively high nutrient systems under 400W 65K metal halides and it would get to be an amazing hot pink. (this page as a photo of one of the LJPM mother colonies, as well as one of the big pink birdsnest colonies http://www.augsburg.edu/ppages/~capman/aquariumphotos/coralmothercolonies.html That particular birdsnest colony was in a high flow area and had a denser branching patter than many of the other colonies, and for whatever reason its color was not so bright. Here is the original colony before it developed its super hot pink color http://www.augsburg.edu/home/biology/aquaria/NewPageswImageMaps,Fall00/PINK_BIRDSNEST_CLOSE.HTML )

 

[patent]

Thats funny, you used the frags for student projects back then, now we all want a copy.

I've got a larry jackson too, though its not colored up well at the moment.

BKhopps, would love a pink birdsnest too if you get extra frags to sell someday.